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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalterWhite View Post
    While I don't expect you to go into detail on a public forum, do you believe there is any way to get around the 2019 loan charge?
    If I assume that:
    1. the new government brings in the legislation in roughly the same way as the March 2017 draft,

    2. you don't want to pay the tax (e.g. by settling with HMRC before April 2019),

    3. you don't want to repay the loan and not get any value back, and

    4. you do not want to be involved in fraud.
    Then I think that there is not chance in hell of getting around the 2019 loan charge.

    Please bear in mind that:
    (a) I do not work for HMRC,

    (b) I do not have anything to sell,

    (c) I do not do any work with contractors, and

    (c) I hold myself out as an expert on disguised remuneration (and on other things).
    Last edited by Iliketax; 11th July 2017 at 09:15. Reason: typos

  2. #12

    Still gathering requirements...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Iliketax View Post
    If I assume that:
    1. the new government brings in the legislation in roughly the same way as the March 2017 draft,

    2. you don't want to pay the tax (e.g. by settling with HMRC before April 2019),

    3. you don't want to repay the loan and not get any value back, and

    4. you do not want to be involved in fraud.
    Then I think that there is not chance in hell of getting around the 2019 loan charge.

    Please bear in mind that:
    (a) I do not work for HMRC,

    (b) I do not have anything to sell,

    (c) I do not do any work with contractors, and

    (c) I hold myself out as an expert on disguised remuneration (and on other things).

    Such is the nature of public forums that like a river they eventually meander away from their starting point. I was hoping for a some simple input on what happens if you repay the loan (either via the trustee directly). This is one of HMRC's options in their proposed FB so it's worth exploring.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not Losing Any Sleep View Post
    Such is the nature of public forums that like a river they eventually meander away from their starting point. I was hoping for a some simple input on what happens if you repay the loan (either via the trustee directly). This is one of HMRC's options in their proposed FB so it's worth exploring.
    Have a look at post 4.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iliketax View Post
    Have a look at post 4.

    You ask the trustee to pay the cash to the company. It does. Your company has a PAYE/NIC obligation.

    Cheers, I did read this but don't understand why the company has a PAYE/NIC obligation if the money has come back to the company. HMRC's legislation invites taxpayers to pay the money back. This seems pointless if the tax is the same.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Not Losing Any Sleep View Post
    You ask the trustee to pay the cash to the company. It does. Your company has a PAYE/NIC obligation.

    Cheers, I did read this but don't understand why the company has a PAYE/NIC obligation if the money has come back to the company. HMRC's legislation invites taxpayers to pay the money back. This seems pointless if the tax is the same.
    You paying cash to the trust to settle your loan from the trust is fine.

    The trust then paying money to the company is something that is within the scope of the existing disguised remuneration legislation (in the same way as you asking the trust to pay money to you or your mum). It may (arguably) be different if the company originally lent money to the trust to lend to you. But if that is what happened then tax would originally have been due under the loans to participator rules.

  6. #16

    More time posting than coding


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    ....there will be plenty of 'schemes' or 'products' that purport to find a way around the 2019 charge. Even if in the 1 in a zillion chance that one of these products work, HMG and HMRC will just legislate (again) to nullify their benefit. It's just kicking the can down the road.

    One of the schemes I was involved in still insists that their product is not impacted by the 2019 Loan Charge. Total nonsense and I'm ignoring them.

    For me, I joined BG as their approach to a settlement with HRMC is more realistic.

  7. #17

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    You don't need a "scheme" to avoid the loan charge.

    Take out a commercial loan and payof the trust loan. 2019 tax charge disappears.

    The employer pays the tax due when the money entered the trust.

    The Trustees of the Trust decide to pay off the commercial loan, acting in your best interests as they are legally bound to do.
    This is not caught in disguised arrangement schemes.
    The money is never returned to you and cannot be taxed. It's paid to the bank or financial institution who gave you a commercial loan.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whysoserious View Post
    You don't need a "scheme" to avoid the loan charge.

    Take out a commercial loan and payof the trust loan. 2019 tax charge disappears.

    The employer pays the tax due when the money entered the trust.

    The Trustees of the Trust decide to pay off the commercial loan, acting in your best interests as they are legally bound to do.
    This is not caught in disguised arrangement schemes.
    The money is never returned to you and cannot be taxed. It's paid to the bank or financial institution who gave you a commercial loan.
    If the tax has already been paid then I agree that this works. But it won't work if the tax is not paid.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iliketax View Post
    If the tax has already been paid then I agree that this works. But it won't work if the tax is not paid.
    If the employer pays tax that defeats the object doesn't it?

    Plus I was under the impression mos payments into trust were recorded as business expenses to avoid corporation tax?

    Apologies if I am missing something obvious.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalterWhite View Post
    If the employer pays tax that defeats the object doesn't it?

    Plus I was under the impression mos payments into trust were recorded as business expenses to avoid corporation tax?

    Apologies if I am missing something obvious.
    It gets rid of the loan which HMRC may view as a cash cow.
    Even if employer pays tax, what's to stop HMRC still pursuing the 2019 loan charge.

    It would be morally repugnant of them to chase for both taxes. But that's HMRC for you.

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