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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtW View Post
    Govt already gave their answer to the petition anyway, from their point of view 2% reduction in corp tax staged over 5 years is good enough for increasing dividend taxation by 30%+.
    You are being selective with your numbers there.

    Corporation Tax for large businesses was 28% in 2010, 21% for small companies. The current rate is 20% with the aim to reduce this to 18%.

    So this is a reduction of 10 percentage points or a reduction of nearly 36%. For small companies the fall is 3 percentage points or just over 14%.

    The new extra tax on dividends effectively gives everyone a tax free dividend allowance of £5K, beyond this the rates are increased by 7.5%, which is a 30% increase for people who were paying the extra tax at 25%.

    So yes it is an increase in tax but it is probably more a case of giving you a tax cut and increase. It would have been better to have reformed the company taxes/dividend taxes at the same time.
    "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldorf View Post
    Corporation Tax for large businesses was 28% in 2010, 21% for small companies. The current rate is 20% with the aim to reduce this to 18%.

    So this is a reduction of 10 percentage points or a reduction of nearly 36%. For small companies the fall is 3 percentage points or just over 14%.
    How many people on here run large enough companies that would have paid 28% corp tax? Very few, and you are accusing me of being selective with my numbers!

    I am one of them actually, but for vast majority of small businesses the corp rate was at 20%, so they totally missed out on Osborne's reduction made for big business and now they'll have to pay increased taxes, and by the way reduction of corp tax to 19% is in 2017 and to 18% in 2020 - so people will be paying increased dividend taxes well before they take advantage of any reduction in corp tax. This is total theft.

    From "big business" point of view (I am affected) he reduced corp tax as part of his promise to make Britain more competitive, that was promised and done.

    Effectively reversing that original decision and taxing more makes a mockery of "Tory" Govt being supposedly pro-business. Well, it is still ok for those shareholders that are offshore - big businesses shift their profits to other countries, so they don't even pay proper corp tax at 20%.

    So essentially he is robbing blind small business owners who never had any benefit from his corp tax reductions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waldorf View Post
    The new extra tax on dividends effectively gives everyone a tax free dividend allowance of £5K, beyond this the rates are increased by 7.5%, which is a 30% increase for people who were paying the extra tax at 25%.

    So yes it is an increase in tax but
    30% increase in tax!!! Which is what I said. Massive increase in tax totally not in manifesto, no indication it would happen in this "pro-business" Govt. Obviously no petition would change this massive tax grab - only way to get even is to make sure in next elections you back candidate that won't be Tory - does not matter which party, as long as they are already in place or 2nd best chance - Tories should suffer total wipeout in next elections and maybe after that they'll get a clue about NOT increasing taxes on already heavily taxed population.

    P.S. Maybe Osborne should remind everybody how they reduced top level of income tax to 40% from 90% and now we should be grateful that it should go back up to just 60%!
    Last edited by AtW; 7th January 2016 at 17:53.

  3. #13
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    And why would they decrease corp tax at all from 20% to 18% as means of softening increase in dividend tax instead of making increase in the dividend tax itself smaller? That's simple - it will make it a lot easier to increase it further to income tax levels.

    No petition would help, only real solution is to become tax resident in some country with more pro-business Govt than Tories in UK.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtW View Post
    you are accusing me of being selective with my numbers!

    I am one of them actually

    30% increase in tax!!! Which is what I said.
    But you were, you were comparing apples and pears. The 2% you quoted (the correct figure is 3%), was the change in the rate. The 30% figure was the change in the amount of tax. To be truly comparative you should have used 7.5%m not 30%.

    Yes, of course you are.

    You did but in a misleading way, Corbyn would have been proud of you.
    "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldorf View Post
    But you were, you were comparing apples and pears. The 2% you quoted (the correct figure is 3%), was the change in the rate. The 30% figure was the change in the amount of tax. To be truly comparative you should have used 7.5%m not 30%.
    Correct figure RIGHT now is 2% - corp tax going from CURRENT 20% to 18% (corp tax amount will go down by 10% obviously - that will only happen in 2017 and 2020!!!)- that's what Osborne gives as way of "compensating" 30% increase in dividend tax whilst making it easy in the future to increase that rate further, with clear aim to align it with main income tax rates (for simplification of course).

    You were using figures to completely mislead people on here because 28% rate never applied to vast majority of small businesses. It did apply to mine, but I view it as totally unacceptable "compensation" - it was promise that was made and now going back on what was done is totally unacceptable.

    In 2016/17 people will be paying 30%+ more tax on dividends without any immediate compensation and who knows what will happen by 2020??? Dividend tax can easily go up before you even see 18% in effect (APRIL 2020 with elections in MAY 2020!!!), and they were not paying small amount either - it's a big increase in taxation.
    Last edited by AtW; 7th January 2016 at 18:10.

  6. #16

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    Calm down dear no need to shout.

    You have to look at a governments actions across its whole life not just a couple of years.

    Of course it is more tax, but it is not all one way, there have been and will be cuts. I also think think the dividend tax rate will increase, it will be too tempting.

    No, I am not happy about increases in taxes but you have to be realistic, making cuts is very difficult, especially with a wafer thin majority, and so some of the gap needs to be filled with extra taxes.

    Remember though that the alternative is even higher taxes, higher spending and higher borrowing, this is what Labour do, and would be even more so if Corbyn becomes PM.

    Tax simplification is needed, remove the loop holes etc, merge tax and NIC, take a look at the Taxpayers Alliance website for some good ideas.
    "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldorf View Post
    Calm down dear no need to shout.

    You have to look at a governments actions across its whole life not just a couple of years.

    Of course it is more tax, but it is not all one way, there have been and will be cuts. I also think think the dividend tax rate will increase, it will be too tempting.

    No, I am not happy about increases in taxes but you have to be realistic, making cuts is very difficult, especially with a wafer thin majority, and so some of the gap needs to be filled with extra taxes.

    Remember though that the alternative is even higher taxes, higher spending and higher borrowing, this is what Labour do, and would be even more so if Corbyn becomes PM.

    Tax simplification is needed, remove the loop holes etc, merge tax and NIC, take a look at the Taxpayers Alliance website for some good ideas.
    While Corbyn isn't scared of alienating businesses of all size those in the nu Labour camp are.

    Also no government would be stupid enough to merge income tax and NI. Otherwise it gives them no scope in future for mucking around with the rates on both the employers and employees side.

    Oh and now the Tories are in favour of an extra tax on sugary drinks but I am cynical about the reasons why.
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  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by SueEllen View Post
    While Corbyn isn't scared of alienating businesses of all size those in the nu Labour camp are.

    Also no government would be stupid enough to merge income tax and NI. Otherwise it gives them no scope in future for mucking around with the rates on both the employers and employees side.

    Oh and now the Tories are in favour of an extra tax on sugary drinks but I am cynical about the reasons why.
    Most MP's will face re-selection before the next election due to boundary changes, so Corbyn will ensure most new candidates will be from the far left. This is why he is concentrating on getting control of the party rather than the parliamentary party.

    The government are looking at merging tax and NIC, employers NIC can still apply even if it's called something else. Also if a government wants to raise more tax it will be more transparent. This will stop people being fooled into thinking that a rise in NIC is not the same as a rise in tax.

    The government has resisted any sugar taxes but they are faced with pressure from the medical groups, not sure it would work but if it helps fight the obesity levels then let's give it a go.
    "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero

  9. #19
    AtW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldorf View Post
    The government are looking at merging tax and NIC, employers NIC can still apply even if it's called something else.
    When elected in 2010 Osborne created commission to look into it and report by END OF THAT Parliament ... in 2015... have not heard anything since.

    It's obvious that the only possible way they'll merge NICs and income tax is in case IF they get more money, period. They won't do the merging because it would make it very obvious (especially with employer NICs) how much tax is taken, no Chancellor would do it. Talking of which - liars said they won't increase NICs, yet they've added 0.5% "apprentice levy" to payroll (albeit of large companies, but still), essentially 0.5% extra employer NIC on those companies.

    Anyway it's offtopic, they won't change this, dividend tax will only go up, the best thing anybody can do (apart from leaving country if they are young enough) is to get even at the next elections.
    Last edited by AtW; 7th January 2016 at 19:32.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtW View Post
    When elected in 2010 Osborne created commission to look into it and report by END OF THAT Parliament ... in 2015... have not heard anything since.
    This was reported on 21st July 2015!

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...Insurance.html
    "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero

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