Ground Zero mosque

[Spacecadet]

Its more of a controversy, or at least it should be, that the site hasn't been rebuilt with a monument yet. Its been 8 years now.

This is all building up to Mr. Wilder's visit isn't it? I wonder what stunt he'll pull? And I just can't imagine what will happen on the 11th of Sept this year. Any guesses. Mass rioting. Stone throwing at every passing Muslim? Could get nasty.

9 years next month!

[minestrone]

Its more of a controversy, or at least it should be, that the site hasn't been rebuilt with a monument yet. Its been 8 years now.

This is all building up to Mr. Wilder's visit isn't it? I wonder what stunt he'll pull? And I just can't imagine what will happen on the 11th of Sept this year. Any guesses. Mass rioting. Stone throwing at every passing Muslim? Could get nasty.

Well I am sure we can rule out Christians flying planes into tower blocks full of Muslims.

[xoggoth]

Don't disagree on the history Gibbon but those of us who don't live for centuries can't afford to take such a long term view. Leading by example is fine but we also have to stand up for own views where necessary. We also need to be alive to future threats.

I would also point out that the fact that Christianity has improved is not any sort of proof that Islam will. A sample of two, one does x, so the other will. Not very sound stats, I'm afraid. Currently Islam is becoming more extreme worldwide not less. A major reason Christianity became more moderate was rising living standards in Christian countries, when people have a decent real life they are less likely to depend on fantasies. In an overcrowded world we cannot be sure that will happen again.

Christianity also had the big advantage that the peaceful message of its main text, Christ's teachings, were at odds with the barbaric practices of the Church and this made it easier for reformers to challenge them. On the other hand the Prophet's words and actions were in line with the very worst of Islam as practiced in Iran. There are many moderate Muslims who are trying to reform the religion and want some passages removed from the Haddiths but they face an uphill struggle against an accepted text.

Do we really want to gamble our future on them succeeding while letting Islam, as it is now, grow in influence in the West?

[SupremeSpod]

Don't disagree on the history Gibbon but those of us who don't live for centuries can't afford to take such a long term view. Leading by example is fine but we also have to stand up for own views where necessary. We also need to be alive to future threats.

I would also point out that the fact that Christianity has improved is not any sort of proof that Islam will. A sample of two, one does x, so the other will. Not very sound stats, I'm afraid. Currently Islam is becoming more extreme worldwide not less. A major reason Christianity became more moderate was rising living standards in Christian countries, when people have a decent real life they are less likely to depend on fantasies. In an overcrowded world we cannot be sure that will happen again.

Christianity also had the big advantage that the peaceful message of its main text, Christ's teachings, were at odds with the barbaric practices of the Church and this made it easier for reformers to challenge them. On the other hand the Prophet's words and actions were in line with the very worst of Islam as practiced in Iran. There are many moderate Muslims who are trying to reform the religion and want some passages removed from the Haddiths but they face an uphill struggle against an accepted text.

Do we really want to gamble our future on them succeeding while letting Islam, as it is now, grow in influence in the West?

So what do you suggest?

[Mich the Tester]

Tres drôle, mais je ne suis pas fâché par les propos insolents d'un petomane professionnel.

pfffff!

By the way, by my reckoning I earned at least 5 eurocents in the duration of my last fart, so I'm obviously a professional petomaniac too. It's an easy way to earn a living, you should try it someday.

[doodab]

So what do you suggest?

Take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Seriously though, perhaps the threat of extinction is what we need to get over all the petty squabbling. We need to track down some unfriendly aliens and start calling them names.

[Mich the Tester]

Don't disagree on the history Gibbon but those of us who don't live for centuries can't afford to take such a long term view. Leading by example is fine but we also have to stand up for own views where necessary. We also need to be alive to future threats.

I would also point out that the fact that Christianity has improved is not any sort of proof that Islam will. A sample of two, one does x, so the other will. Not very sound stats, I'm afraid. Currently Islam is becoming more extreme worldwide not less. A major reason Christianity became more moderate was rising living standards in Christian countries, when people have a decent real life they are less likely to depend on fantasies. In an overcrowded world we cannot be sure that will happen again.

Christianity also had the big advantage that the peaceful message of its main text, Christ's teachings, were at odds with the barbaric practices of the Church and this made it easier for reformers to challenge them. On the other hand the Prophet's words and actions were in line with the very worst of Islam as practiced in Iran. There are many moderate Muslims who are trying to reform the religion and want some passages removed from the Haddiths but they face an uphill struggle against an accepted text.

Do we really want to gamble our future on them succeeding while letting Islam, as it is now, grow in influence in the West?

Is not the problem Islam as a basis for running a state, as opposed to Islam itself, which clearly has a huge diversity of interpretations? I've seen plenty of places where a large muslim minority lives peacefully with others and has done so for a long time; the problems of intolerance seem to come to a head in places where Islam is given a place of privilege in governing the country.

[lilelvis2000]

Well I am sure we can rule out Christians flying planes into tower blocks full of Muslims.

been done already.

[Gibbon]

Xog,

Agree with you're sentiment, but as SP says what can we practically do. Perscution even mild such as not allowing face veils doesn't work and only creates martyrs and further resentment. What we should be trying to do is try to bring them closer to our culture whilst allowing them the right to practice theirs as long as it is no threat to the state. We shouldn't allow them to gehettoise and create mini-states within communities. Oldham are re-jigging the school catchment areas to precisely do do this i.e. to mix people up.

A lot of what we fear is what we don't know. We should work with them and help them see the extremists are just like the BNP in a different cloak.
As you allude to poverty being a factor, I believe this is so esp with the Pakistani community. Get them better educated, better jobs and as you say they will start to see what we have on offer.

It won't be easy and will last longer than our lifetimes, but we must or the alternative is perscution or civil war make no mistake.

[EC4N]

Well I am sure we can rule out Christians flying planes into tower blocks full of Muslims.

Or the jews who were caught celebrating when the planes were actually slamming into the buildings? 'Our mission was to document the event', according to one.

So how did the third tower come down without being struck? A massive structure in it's own right coming down in free fall like the other two.

If we weren't living in a fictitious age there wouldn't be such hoo haa about some G zero prayer room.