Hi, newbie, advice sought

[northernladuk]

Ah but what if I don't know that for certain.

My understanding is old role that staff member retired from job description is likely to be re-written i.e. a new position with different or amended responsibilities etc.

Its playing on semantics a bit. Though my experience is things can slip and filling of post may not happen for some time. One could argue they are filing with temp to allow the business to reassess and take a judgment view on what they need... How many went into a contract for 3 months and ended up there a few years later still on contract... if they didnt go limited then its lost opportunity to be tax intelligent/efficient

That's a pretty thin argument at best. I wouldn't be basing any decision on that.

[TheFaQQer]

Surely they could? Just have the money paid from the Umbrella paid to the LTD instead of personally? Forgot the why the f**king hell would you do something so utterly stupid issue for the moment. It's still possible no?

I'd be surprised if you would find an umbrella that would take on a limited company on their books because the systems for payment and calculation will be all geared up for dealing with individuals.

You might be able to do it, but I think you'd struggle to find an umbrella that caters for the client > agency > umbrella > limited company > individual chain as standard.

[TheFaQQer]

Ah but what if I don't know that for certain.

My understanding is old role that staff member retired from job description is likely to be re-written i.e. a new position with different or amended responsibilities etc.

Its playing on semantics a bit. Though my experience is things can slip and filling of post may not happen for some time. One could argue they are filing with temp to allow the business to reassess and take a judgment view on what they need... How many went into a contract for 3 months and ended up there a few years later still on contract... if they didnt go limited then its lost opportunity to be tax intelligent/efficient

Firstly, let's go back to your original post where you talk about an employer and the role being outside IR35. Those two don't go together at all - if you are employed by someone else then IR35 doesn't come into things at all, since you are an employee.

Your description of the role is that the same role will be filled by a permanent employee, which doesn't help with any IR35 defence either. Will you have any of the three key pillars of self-employment present? Because if you haven't then you aren't going to be able to show that you're outside IR35. If the client was to make an assessment of the role using a reliable tool, would they think that you are inside or outside IR35?

I'm sure that you could argue that although you knew it was a temp-to-perm role, the client was only using a temporary resource while they reassess the requirements (rather than only using a temporary resource to do the exact same job that the permanent employee does while they look for someone to take that role on) and if you have the evidence to support that then you'll be fine. Bear in mind that IR35 investigations will talk to the client and look to form a theoretical contract which supports HMRC's viewpoint rather than your own, so get the evidence in place and you'll be fine.

As for the question about people who started on a three month contract and then provided services for a longer period, that happens. However, I'm not sure how many people take on a three month contract while looking for a permanent role and then argue successfully that they weren't doing that at all.

[northernladuk]

I'd be surprised if you would find an umbrella that would take on a limited company on their books because the systems for payment and calculation will be all geared up for dealing with individuals.

You might be able to do it, but I think you'd struggle to find an umbrella that caters for the client > agency > umbrella > limited company > individual chain as standard.

There is that I guess but it's such a ridiculous idea they don't because it's pretty dumb.

[New50]

Good points FaQQar.

Appreciate some view its a bit thin ground regards outside IR35, but both agency and accountants are confident. That said I'll get evidence collated next week to underpin this (SDC test). I have opted to go for one of the large call center accountants (Brookson) who was heavily stipulated by agency, it makes it quick / simple / easy for all parties as I needed to get set up as ltd co, bank account, etc. I did prefer to go with BroomeAffinity who post on here, they are local to me and know their business well. But I can change once I am more self reliant (on that side of things) if life takes me on contracting more into the future...

Regards doing contract for 3 months and potential that perm post become available that I might consider, I think its fair to argue that anyone will keep options open and continually reassess their needs (decision to look for another contract or decide to take up a perm offer).

Also, I'll will be able to evidence an immediately previous agency/contract role using umbrella in an inside IR35 role (local gov) that was due to finish in February and which post has also now been advertised for perm. So not to concerned that HMRC can argument that I am taking latest position with a view to perm work, as I would counter that option was open to me in previous appointment that I did not take up.

Anyway I am now set up as a Director of my own ltd company I'll give myself a pat on the back for my promotion.

[malvolio]

Good points FaQQar.

Appreciate some view its a bit thin ground regards outside IR35, but both agency and accountants are confident. That said I'll get evidence collated next week to underpin this (SDC test). I have opted to go for one of the large call center accountants (Brookson) who was heavily stipulated by agency, it makes it quick / simple / easy for all parties as I needed to get set up as ltd co, bank account, etc. I did prefer to go with BroomeAffinity who post on here, they are local to me and know their business well. But I can change once I am more self reliant (on that side of things) if life takes me on contracting more into the future...

Regards doing contract for 3 months and potential that perm post become available that I might consider, I think its fair to argue that anyone will keep options open and continually reassess their needs (decision to look for another contract or decide to take up a perm offer).

Also, I'll will be able to evidence an immediately previous agency/contract role using umbrella in an inside IR35 role (local gov) that was due to finish in February and which post has also now been advertised for perm. So not to concerned that HMRC can argument that I am taking latest position with a view to perm work, as I would counter that option was open to me in previous appointment that I did not take up.

Anyway I am now set up as a Director of my own ltd company I'll give myself a pat on the back for my promotion.

Good job, have fun and welcome to the madhouse.

Just be aware that (a) contracts are assessed individually for IR35 so previous history or even on-going other gigs are totally not relevant, (b) HMRC are not rational, you can't debate things with them, you can only go to tribunal and (c) there are bigger things to worry about than IR35 anyway.

Also be aware that changing accountants may come at a cost; you have signed up for a year with Brooksons even if you're paying monthly. Actually changing is simple however.

And my usual caveat to all new contractors applies. Your job is not what you do to earn money, it's being a contractor. Work at being good at that.

And join IPSE...

[northernladuk]

Good points FaQQar.

Appreciate some view its a bit thin ground regards outside IR35, but both agency and accountants are confident. That said I'll get evidence collated next week to underpin this (SDC test). I have opted to go for one of the large call center accountants (Brookson) who was heavily stipulated by agency, it makes it quick / simple / easy for all parties as I needed to get set up as ltd co, bank account, etc. I did prefer to go with BroomeAffinity who post on here, they are local to me and know their business well. But I can change once I am more self reliant (on that side of things) if life takes me on contracting more into the future...
.

Don't do that. They are pushed by the agency because they are on a kickback, nothing more. Never go for a recommendation from an agency.

Changing is hassle and is best done at year end so only one good time a year to do it. IMO get it right first time.

Have a look at this and see if you are still happy with your choice.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=br...hrome&ie=UTF-8

[malvolio]

Don't do that. They are pushed by the agency because they are on a kickback, nothing more. Never go for a recommendation from an agency.

Changing is hassle and is best done at year end so only one good time a year to do it. IMO get it right first time.

Have a look at this and see if you are still happy with your choice.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=br...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Further to this, there is a current discussion on LinkedIn started by Broome complaining that a new contractor can't use them because the agency ( !! ) insists they use Brooksons...

The general tone of the replies is either "f***ing agencies f***ing a market that is nothing to do with them" or mutterings about restraint of trade.

[BrilloPad]

Don't do that. They are pushed by the agency because they are on a kickback, nothing more. Never go for a recommendation from an agency.

Changing is hassle and is best done at year end so only one good time a year to do it. IMO get it right first time.

Have a look at this and see if you are still happy with your choice.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=br...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Further to this, there is a current discussion on LinkedIn started by Broome complaining that a new contractor can't use them because the agency ( !! ) insists they use Brooksons...

The general tone of the replies is either "f***ing agencies f***ing a market that is nothing to do with them" or mutterings about restraint of trade.

Indeed. And no agency will lost commission from a contractor just because they lose a bit from accountant kickback.

[New50]

Further to this, there is a current discussion on LinkedIn started by Broome complaining that a new contractor can't use them because the agency ( !! ) insists they use Brooksons...

The general tone of the replies is either "f***ing agencies f***ing a market that is nothing to do with them" or mutterings about restraint of trade.

Aye, that wiz me. Agency were stipulating Brookstons. Broome are in my neck of the woods and I was going to plump with Alan (knowledgeable, fast reply to interest, etc). However, agency got a bit huffy and I didn't want to delay any start (next Monday).

First time ltd company... so I though OK I know they are kicking back a bit, service will be call centerish, but I did get free ltd set up (BS charge £50 normally) and also 1st month free (well what left of first month anyways).

As they say, you pays your money and takes your choice...