Is this agency playing games - Should i down tools?

**northernladuk** · 7 December 2022, 21:53

Originally posted by MrC View Post

Recently started a new gig.

Secured through (very large high st name) agency and with an umbrella company.

You say you've secured it but sounds like you haven't. What exactly happened when you secured it? Who signed the contracts?

So based on how I've always worked I'm expecting the contractural relationship to be:

End client <-> Agency <-> umbrella <-> contractor

To be pedantic sounding that be Umbremma <-> employee?

However the agency is saying that there is no contract between them and the umbrella.

They have given me details of the asignment and are saying that I should forward that to my umbrella. I said I expected, and my brolly expected the agency to send the umbrella a contract.

So this isn't a contractual chain, they are just expecting you to do the running. Who is expected to sign the contract and who is detailed on the contract? If you've started the gig who signed it?

Whatever the above why have you started a gig without this being resolved?

I grilled them on this and they are saying they have to be "vendor neutral" and dont have a direct contract with the umbrella. THey are also saying the agrement is trilateral ie something more like this:

End client <-> Agency <-> contractor
<->
umbrella

Is this a situation where they just send you the docs and you pass them on rather than just talking to the umbrella? If all the paperwork is an agreement between them and the umbrella it does sound very odd passing it to you to pass on but thats just a communication path. The contractual path should still be right.

Tell us the detail of how the gig was agreed and signed for and who are the parties on the contracts

Not sure if this is the new normal and legit or some kind of dodgyness. Should I be downing tools or is this all above board?

Why have you even started if all this isn't signed and agreed by all parties?

Seems to have been something fishy going on with the umbrella being on their ASL but not PSL. Apparently brollies can drop off of their ASL if no-one is using them so they come and go. I was told when agreeing to one docusign doc with agency that the brolly name would drop down from the list but then it turned out to be free text.

Ah so you've signed something by docu sign? Why did you do that if you belive the chaing to be agency, brolly, you? In your model you should have no contractual obligation to the agency so why are you signing?

Should you down tools? Well you've started? If you down tools you definitely won't get paid for those days and probably let go so getting nothing. If you keep working there is a slight chance it will get resolved and you might get paid. Depends on whether you are willing to go to worth with the possibility of not getting paid or want to sit at home and not get paid at all.

**MrC** · 8 December 2022, 11:48

Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

You say you've secured it but sounds like you haven't. What exactly happened when you secured it? Who signed the contracts?

To be pedantic sounding that be Umbremma <-> employee?

So this isn't a contractual chain, they are just expecting you to do the running. Who is expected to sign the contract and who is detailed on the contract? If you've started the gig who signed it?

Whatever the above why have you started a gig without this being resolved?

Is this a situation where they just send you the docs and you pass them on rather than just talking to the umbrella? If all the paperwork is an agreement between them and the umbrella it does sound very odd passing it to you to pass on but thats just a communication path. The contractual path should still be right.

Tell us the detail of how the gig was agreed and signed for and who are the parties on the contracts

Why have you even started if all this isn't signed and agreed by all parties?

Ah so you've signed something by docu sign? Why did you do that if you belive the chaing to be agency, brolly, you? In your model you should have no contractual obligation to the agency so why are you signing?

Should you down tools? Well you've started? If you down tools you definitely won't get paid for those days and probably let go so getting nothing. If you keep working there is a slight chance it will get resolved and you might get paid. Depends on whether you are willing to go to worth with the possibility of not getting paid or want to sit at home and not get paid at all.

Ok so the agency has been very vague about things. They've sent me a one pager for me to sign which is basically just me acknowledging that I'm not directly engaged through them and a couple of opt out parts.

They've also sent me a "assignment confirmation letter" which is basically just a schedule ie client start date duration rate etc.
They are saying these 2 things form the contract.

They say I should forward the latter to the umbrella and things can be set up from that. They are saying it gives the umbrella all of the information they need. I've said it's not about information but contractual commitment.

This all aligns with the daisy chain of contracts which them means it's contingent on the brolly having a contract with the agency.

Is there some sort of tactic which they might be using here we eg don't issue contract for a while until the client is happy with contractor in order to wriggle out more easily?

**Sub** · 8 December 2022, 13:39

It sounds that formalities are not finished, nothing exactly dodgy here.

There must be two contracts in place:

1. B2B contract between agency and Umbrella, signed by both of them. You need to see that contract and agree with it, good Umbrella will not sign it before you are happy, so if they not asking you to agree with B2B contract - look for another umbrella. That is not "details of the assignment" letter, but normal contract describing all T&Cs.

2. Contract of employment between you and Umbrella - signed by yourself and Umbrella. There also can be supplementary "assignment schedule" document describing specifics of the contract, like rate, hours, termination or anything else. In that case employment contract must have provisions for the document.

It sounds like agency given you summary of the engagement terms and now you need to engage an Umbrella - this is how this supposed to be. Contact Umbrella, send them terms given by agency and ask for next steps. They will contact each other as umbrella need to exchange info with agency, should be no action for you.

If you are started already without contracts in place, while it is not a good practice, at this point I personally would just engage umbrella - it'll take a few days to sort out.

**eek** · 8 December 2022, 13:52

Originally posted by Sub View Post

It sounds like agency given you summary of the engagement terms and now you need to engage an Umbrella - this is how this supposed to be.

That is not how it's supposed to be.

1) The umbrella is your employer - all contract discussions should be between your employer and the agency not you as a worker. Yes there are secondary discussions because you are the main party to these negotiations but that is a secondary matter.

And to be clear the contracts should be

End Client <> Agency <> Umbrella
Umbrella <> Worker

Now financial discussions are different and they will be between you and the Agency but once the figures are agreed the next step should be contract negotiations between agency and umbrella followed by a conversation between you and the umbrella to confirm that what the agency is saying to the umbrella reflects what you agreed with the agency.

Equally
2)The agency should be vetting the umbrella to make sure it's not a tax avoidance scheme - because depending on the type of scheme the umbrella operates it could very quickly come back and seriously impact the agency (VAT will be marked as none deductible and the agency will be asked to pay the HMRC 20% VAT on the payments made to the "umbrella").

Given that this is supposedly a known brand I'm rather concerned as to how clueless they seem to be.

**MrC** · 8 December 2022, 18:17

So I might as well divulge the agency which is Hays.

I understand eek that you've used them previously so hope you may have useful insight.

I spoke to my umbrella today and they said that Hays never send out a contract. She also said some agencies never even send any information.
I'm somewhat reassured that this is normal for Hays although it doesn't seem ideal.

I imagine that if I do the work and the client is happy then I'll get paid (sometimes late given past threads here) but if something turns pair shaped then who knows what might happen.

As far as starting this gig without a contract then yes I've taken my eye off the ball, it's been a protracted complex messy hunt for work this time with a last minute Friday confirmation of a Monday start so not the easiest to navigate.

At least where you have a ltd contract a lot of this nonsense should go away.

I feel a bit cheated tbh as I always thought that umbrella was supposed to be the expensive option (tax) but compensated by diminished risk and hassle. It saddens me that we've ended up here

**northernladuk** · 9 December 2022, 01:00

Originally posted by MrC View Post

So I might as well divulge the agency which is Hays.

I spoke to my umbrella today and they said that Hays never send out a contract. She also said some agencies never even send any information.
I'm somewhat reassured that this is normal for Hays although it doesn't seem ideal.

So are the umbrella happy with this? There is no payment terms, no termination clauses and thinking about it absolutely no obigation to even bother paying the brolly/you? Are the umbrella going to get paid by the agent and then pay you? You are sure the chain is complete even if there is a very shoddy implied contract in place? I must admit I've very surprised by all that as well. Got to be a reason for that surely as it exposes all sorts of risks that a solid contract could cover and agencies don't like risk generally. Interesting and surprising.

I imagine that if I do the work and the client is happy then I'll get paid (sometimes late given past threads here) but if something turns pair shaped then who knows what might happen.

PEAR.
I just can't help thinking that's a bit of an assumption or a bit too much of a flippant comment. There are 2 other people between you and the client and there isn't a contract in place with two of them. I get what you are saying but that phrase just seems all wrong. You offset it bringing up the risk of what might happen which is fair enough. I'm sure there are many people that thought that and they didn't get paid. That phrasing just doesn't sit right with me for some reason. Probably reading too much in to it.

As far as starting this gig without a contract then yes I've taken my eye off the ball, it's been a protracted complex messy hunt for work this time with a last minute Friday confirmation of a Monday start so not the easiest to navigate.

It is easy. You don't work until a contract is in place, or at least the situation is resolved. I mean, the clue is in your title. CONTRACTor. It would only have taken a day or two extra to sort it properly. You have position power here. If the client wants you a few days delay won't affect anything. No one wants to go through the whole recruiting process again just because you are a few days delayed. If the agent is losing commission because you are delaying until things are done properlly they will act very quickly to sort it. Not doing things properly just because it moved on quickly isn't a reason to make mistakes like this.. but again that's IMO.

At least where you have a ltd contract a lot of this nonsense should go away.

Possibly but I'd be willing to bet you'd have started before everything was done properly in that situation as well. If it's complex you delay the start until it is sorted whatver the chain.

I feel a bit cheated tbh as I always thought that umbrella was supposed to be the expensive option (tax) but compensated by diminished risk and hassle. It saddens me that we've ended up here

I can half understand that but getting an extra party in the chain that ultimately doesn't really care what you do isn't going to make things easier at the best of times. Not helpful but I can't help thinking this wouldn't have been as big an issue if you'd sorted it first before starting.

Glad you are sorted though.

**Protagoras** · 9 December 2022, 02:23

It doesn't seem very clear whether OP has a signed contract of employment in place with the umbrella.

Without that, OP arguably is not covered by liability insurances, and if this is the case it would be appropriate to cease work immediately.

Since OP is acting as a Worker (cf. a Contractor) then I also wonder whether OP may inadvertently become an employee of the Agency or the Client in the absence of the proper contractual chain being in place.

I'd have expected that the Client in particular would expect this to have been resolved before the Worker engagement commenced. Perhaps the Client doesn't appreciate that this is unresolved?

**MrC** · 10 December 2022, 11:21

Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

You say you've secured it but sounds like you haven't. What exactly happened when you secured it? Who signed the contracts?

To be pedantic sounding that be Umbremma <-> employee?

So this isn't a contractual chain, they are just expecting you to do the running. Who is expected to sign the contract and who is detailed on the contract? If you've started the gig who signed it?

Whatever the above why have you started a gig without this being resolved?

Is this a situation where they just send you the docs and you pass them on rather than just talking to the umbrella? If all the paperwork is an agreement between them and the umbrella it does sound very odd passing it to you to pass on but thats just a communication path. The contractual path should still be right.

Tell us the detail of how the gig was agreed and signed for and who are the parties on the contracts

Why have you even started if all this isn't signed and agreed by all parties?

Ah so you've signed something by docu sign? Why did you do that if you belive the chaing to be agency, brolly, you? In your model you should have no contractual obligation to the agency so why are you signing?

Should you down tools? Well you've started? If you down tools you definitely won't get paid for those days and probably let go so getting nothing. If you keep working there is a slight chance it will get resolved and you might get paid. Depends on whether you are willing to go to worth with the possibility of not getting paid or want to sit at home and not get paid at all.

Ok so I've done more digging and the agency said they have an overarching agreement with the umbrella so no need for a specific contract. Obtained said contract from the umbrella and it's a contract which was evidently written for a ltd company contractor business. Some of the clauses make it clearly inappropriate/invalid. Oh and it's dated 2012 so likely out of date too!

One might conclude that Hays wouldn't provide a suitable umbrella contract back then and won't since in what is arguably an abuse of power while the umbrella is overly relaxed and is more concerned with growing volumes than having valid contracts in place.

Whole situation is a farce. Only thing remaining is to decide whether to proceed with it taking on board the risks or write off the days worked, effort procuring and face more bench time.

obviously I could play hard ball with no contract no work but it seems that Hays are too far up their own proverbial to consider changing their procedures to execute correct practice

**northernladuk** · 10 December 2022, 15:09

Originally posted by MrC View Post

Ok so I've done more digging and the agency said they have an overarching agreement with the umbrella so no need for a specific contract. Obtained said contract from the umbrella and it's a contract which was evidently written for a ltd company contractor business. Some of the clauses make it clearly inappropriate/invalid. Oh and it's dated 2012 so likely out of date too!

Well that's something at least. It's likely there hasn't ever been an issue with it since then as if there were the agency would have re-issued a new one to cover their arses. If it's not changed in 2012 it must work OK if you get me. All they have to do is pass payment over so it's not exactly a complex situation. Hays are big enough to not dick about stealing money etc so even that old it should suffice.

One might conclude that Hays wouldn't provide a suitable umbrella contract back then and won't since in what is arguably an abuse of power while the umbrella is overly relaxed and is more concerned with growing volumes than having valid contracts in place.

Or it worked and there is no need to re-address it as it's only really the payment terms are meaningful.

Whole situation is a farce. Only thing remaining is to decide whether to proceed with it taking on board the risks or write off the days worked, effort procuring and face more bench time.

obviously I could play hard ball with no contract no work but it seems that Hays are too far up their own proverbial to consider changing their procedures to execute correct practice

I'd say armed with this new information you get on with it. There is an overarching contract there and both parties seem pretty relaxed about it so must work. I'd be inclined to get on with it but keep a close eye on payments.

Is this agency playing games - Should i down tools?