• Visitors can check out the Forum FAQ by clicking this link. You have to register before you can post: click the REGISTER link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. View our Forum Privacy Policy.
Collapse

You are not logged in or you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

  • You are not logged in. If you are already registered, fill in the form below to log in, or follow the "Sign Up" link to register a new account.
  • You may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
  • If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

Previously on "Bit of advice? Venting..."

Collapse

  • drob1984
    replied
    I've just put a post on a very similar thread, here:

    It is infuriating, but we are where are are and we all now need to get real about IR35 and SDS etc. We're coming to the end of this FY, so start the new FY with a new arrangement and avoid tax complications at a new client and new agency. By going from Outside (via limited) to Inside (via Umbrella) or even just straight-forward Umbrella without a statement on IR35 (think increased NI and Employer NI contribs), you put yourself at risk. How much risk... who knows, but that's for you to make a decision on. If you're happy with the risk, I guess you'll suck it up and extend. Good luck with your decision, its brought agony to many of us.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snarf
    replied
    Originally posted by Paralytic View Post
    The question to ask is: will you be given an IR35 determination (SDS)? If not, you are neither inside nor outside.

    I think you are probably resigned to either going via an Umbrella or leaving.
    I have an SDS.

    I think some in the company are a bit confused amongst themselves about the companies ongoing policy regarding contractors which is why Im getting the mixed messages.

    Basically a few people have said "We're putting you inside IR35 because the company wont deal with Ltd Co Contractors going forward"* which in my mind at least is different from we're putting you inside because you actually are inside.

    * The implication being that where there was any ambiguity in the rules/contract/working practices they chose the route that would weight it more towards inside when doing the SDS questionnaire.
    Last edited by Snarf; 19 February 2021, 17:19.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paralytic
    replied
    Originally posted by Snarf View Post
    Like I said, Im resigned to going inside now, I know they wont change their minds, all we can do is push for a bit of an uplift in rate...
    The question to ask is: will you be given an IR35 determination (SDS)? If not, you are neither inside nor outside.

    I think you are probably resigned to either going via an Umbrella or leaving.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snarf
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    No it's not. You all do the same role, if it's decided that role is inside then you are all inside. Don't start confusing blankets with role based assessments. It's confusing enough as it is.
    Fair point - I read up and now understand the distinction.

    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    So all the reviews and SDS are pointless then. If they won't deal with LTD's then you are all inside or banned PSCs. They aren't have making a mess of this.
    Im still getting mixed messages on this depending who I talk to so its been escalated and Ill have a call with the guy in charge of the process on Monday. But its sounds like the unofficial line is "We wont deal with Ltd contractors from april" but at the same time they don't want to rule it out completely business wide so all IT contractors are inside but I get the impression some other contractors elsewhere in the business are being left outside - To be confirmed on Monday.

    Like I said, Im resigned to going inside now, I know they wont change their minds, all we can do is push for a bit of an uplift in rate...

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by Snarf View Post
    1 Its not been an individual review, but also not blanket decision they have looked at contractors by role (which is funny because we're all developers so it might as well be a blanket decision) They didn't review contracts but went off working practices* that they want in place, which means ignoring clauses in my contract but.. Its take it or leave so I guess it doesn't matter what's in the contract.
    No it's not. You all do the same role, if it's decided that role is inside then you are all inside. Don't start confusing blankets with role based assessments. It's confusing enough as it is.
    2 We have been given an SDS now but also told that the company wont be dealing with ltd contractors going forward (Which is the grey area that I need to follow up on - are they saying no more contractors or are they saying contractors but only inside IR35)
    So all the reviews and SDS are pointless then. If they won't deal with LTD's then you are all inside or banned PSCs. They aren't have making a mess of this.
    Last edited by northernladuk; 18 February 2021, 18:45.

    Leave a comment:


  • naywansteepanuf
    replied
    I'm coming into a similar scenario - Clientco has deemed all contractors to be inside based upon 'role assessment' ignoring the fact that for some of the PSC's they have limited or no comprehension of the actual role which is exactly why they use said PSCs in the first place (they don't have staff to fulfill these roles...)

    The 'appeal' process will involve a QDOS assessment questionnaire which Clientco will then validate (or otherwise). This is likely just a sham exercise as when they did this last year they weren't in agreement with some of the PSC responses (notwithstanding these responses were honest and factually correct) but then all went back to normal with the deferment

    Leave a comment:


  • Snarf
    replied
    Ok so had the call with one of the management team who dealt with this - still have a follow up with another to clarify some things.

    As expected, no movement on the decision, here were the key points :

    1 Its not been an individual review, but also not blanket decision they have looked at contractors by role (which is funny because we're all developers so it might as well be a blanket decision) They didn't review contracts but went off working practices* that they want in place, which means ignoring clauses in my contract but.. Its take it or leave so I guess it doesn't matter what's in the contract.

    2 We have been given an SDS now but also told that the company wont be dealing with ltd contractors going forward (Which is the grey area that I need to follow up on - are they saying no more contractors or are they saying contractors but only inside IR35)

    3 This all comes down to the new company that they have merged with, they have very little appetite for risk (and I understand their position, there's no benefit to them putting us outside IR35)


    * Its not working practices as they stand now but how they will be/how the new company perceives them, so for example last year before the merge they would have heard the case for a substitution and allowed it if the substitute was suitable where as now they wont entertain the notion at all. They also want to shuffle us between projects as they see fit so have decided that they will be doing this going forward so while they don't at the moment (Without our agreement at least) going forward they will be shuffling people as they see fit, There is still no MOO but but they want to firm up the control they have (which was already a grey area anyway).

    Basically the new company want to change the working practices which would have put us inside regardless of the reforms coming.


    To be honest, its nothing that I wasn't expecting - I still need to get clarification on the "Am I inside or do they just not want to deal with ltds at all any more" which given the SDS I think has been answered but there was ambiguity so Ill follow that up.

    Then Ill bite the bullet, sign up with a brolly and get my accountant to work out the tax liability for the previous year just in case there ever is an investigation - Ill try and squirrel enough away to cover it, Ive been quite frugal so theres a decent chunk in the company at the moment that I can draw down and stick in an ISA for a few years in case HMRC come knocking.

    Leave a comment:


  • eek
    replied
    Originally posted by ladymuck View Post
    Always nice to see that one's comments have to be paraphrased by men before they're worthy of consideration
    In my case I was just confirming that my viewpoint was the same as yours - that it was highly unlikely to be a blanket determination (illegal), more likely just a blanket ban (perfectly legal).

    Leave a comment:


  • ladymuck
    replied
    Originally posted by ladymuck View Post
    Essentially what's happened is that the company you originally worked at has taken on the risk appetite of the company they've merged with and their ways of working.

    I think the statement
    Clientco have announced today that they have decided that from April 2021 all contractors will be inside IR35
    is concerning.

    If your client has indeed issued a blanket determination for all contractors then they are (IANAL so do check) in breach of the regulation as that does not show the right level of care being taken.

    If they have taken advice from a good source, I am sure they have a proper form of words in their communication and you've chosen to interpret it differently.

    Originally posted by eek View Post
    As LM points out

    I really doubt they've said everyone is inside IR35 - what they will be saying is that they won't be using labour provided via Personal Service Companies or words to that effect.

    Originally posted by Snarf View Post
    This is a good point, I'll need to clarify - from what I've seen it's a blanket determination, whether they will still engage with pscs in some circumstances I don't know

    Have a call scheduled tomorrow with one of the management team so should get more info.
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    That's your starting point. Last year was a last minute panic and you've got a new company running the show so start again.
    Always nice to see that one's comments have to be paraphrased by men before they're worthy of consideration

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by Snarf View Post
    You'd think so but we were all under the impression that last year's decision stood.. until yesterday.

    I'll get full details direct from the horses mouth tomorrow instead of second hand reworded by the agent.
    That's your starting point. Last year was a last minute panic and you've got a new company running the show so start again.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snarf
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    What, exactly did they say. It's less than 6 weeks away so they should know by now.
    You'd think so but we were all under the impression that last year's decision stood.. until yesterday.

    I'll get full details direct from the horses mouth tomorrow instead of second hand reworded by the agent.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by Snarf View Post
    Question,

    If they say everyone is inside ir35 or that they just don't deal with ltd company contractors the outcome is very similar.
    I think there needs to be a clear distinction. In one you've the option to challenge the SDS and the company could get in to trouble with incorrect and blanket determinations. The other you don't. As you saw with paralized I think it's important to keep the two clear other wise you'll miss any potential differences that might mean something in the future.
    But it seems to me that the latter would be better for me as it wouldn't mean that my status would change during the contract.
    And there is one of the key differences as i said.
    I'd be outside for just over a year and then move to a contract via brolly because the client doesn't work with ltds any more.
    That seems to be the better of the two if you don't fancy a fight.

    But you said they said you'd be inside. Paralized thinks otherwise. Well actually, he can't make his mind up but the point is absolutely key. What, exactly did they say. It's less than 6 weeks away so they should know by now.
    Is that right? Would that be better for the contractors?
    Depends on the exact statement from the client which it appears we don't know yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snarf
    replied
    Question,

    If they say everyone is inside ir35 or that they just don't deal with ltd company contractors the outcome is very similar.

    But it seems to me that the latter would be better for me as it wouldn't mean that my status would change during the contract.

    I'd be outside for just over a year and then move to a contract via brolly because the client doesn't work with ltds any more.

    Is that right? Would that be better for the contractors?

    Leave a comment:


  • Snarf
    replied
    Originally posted by GhostofTarbera View Post
    Pay up last years tax, as you were inside IR35 all along


    Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum
    While I appreciate the comment, I strongly disagree.

    I did my due diligence, I had reviews of the contract and working practices (well as best I could for the wp because it was before I started) the client assessed the contract outside during the run-up to the 2020 changes (and they're quite a risk averse company) all that's changed is that the new owner is even more risk averse.

    But you know, it's all a bit subjective, I'm sure HMRC would agree with you

    Leave a comment:


  • Snarf
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    Snarf is an experienced poster so I'm sure he'll be back.
    Indeed, like a nasty rash you just can't get rid of, I'm back!

    I'd have been back on earlier but I've had a busy day gossiping with my fellow contractors and not doing much work.

    I'm going to clarify exactly what is happening with the client tomorrow so will pop back on and update then.

    To be honest I think I've resigned myself to going inside from April, I doubt they'll change their minds over any arguments I can make and I don't want to push it to the point that I burn any bridges!

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X