Ok - now I'm confused

[cojak]

If you settle, I'm sure that will be the end of the matter.

And get them to state that in writing...

[woody1]

Count yourself lucky you weren't in the scheme any earlier. The late payment rate for years 2001-2008 was averaging around 7%, so for 2001/2 the accrued interest would now be over 100% (ie. more than doubling the bill). At least rates were low 2009-2021.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...interest-rates

If you settle, I'm sure that will be the end of the matter.

[InNZ]

So - an update, after almost 3 years.

On 21st May, I received an envelope from HMRC. Annoying on several fronts. First off, they have got may name wrong AGAIN!. How many times do I need to tell them. Second, I have asked them to ONLY ever email me because a) envelopes do go missing between UK and NZ and b) it can sometimes take a month to get here. Case in point, one of the documents in the envelope was dated 21st April, the other the 27th April (I got them 21st May). Then, one page states that I need to pay by 17th May and another by the 18th (yeah - well done HMRC, nice and consistant!) otherwise I'll be liable to a 5% surcharge.

Anyway, they have finally worked out how much I owe them. On my initial glance I was quite chuffed as the amount is considerably less than the figure I had agreed to settle years ago. Then I saw how much interest was being applied (loans from 2005 and 2006). Boy was I annoyed! How come it's taken them 3 years to work this out? The cynic in me thinks they held on as long as possible to get as much interest as possible (and I reckon they knew the election was coming so thought they'd better grab it now just in case Labour changed things).

Fortunately I can just about cover the amount but am having to sell assets in order to do so. And although it's a wrench I'm am so glad that it will all be over.

Or will it!!!!!!

[Chevalier]

I have some questions if any of you could help?
1) Presuambly HMRC can keep these open enquiries (CoP8 from memory) open indefinately? I might be remembering incorrectly, but I seem to recall that in the booket I was sent at the time, HMRC said they would keep me updated on a yearly basis. But that could well be a false memory.
2) Having agreed to settle several years ago for ALL my loans (HMRC then never actually asked for the money) would I be correct in thinking that the settlement amount will now decrease as not all my loans are included?
3) My original settlement amount didn't include any interest - are HMRC likely to include that now?

Thanks

Yes - Unfortunately HMRC can leave enquiries open indefinitely. Of course you can force the issue by applying to the FTT for closure, but few do.

Any years that were not “open”, are now beyond HMRC’s reach so that’s the good news. The bad news is however that HMRC have now found their magic key, and the loan charge was complete unnecessary - at least for those considered to have an employer (Hoey) (NB it may be worth checking which type of scheme you were in)

HMRC will definitely want interest unfortunately.

[InNZ]

A quick update.
Having had another envelope from HMRC on 28 Dec 2022, I emailed them to ask what my origin letter actually meant. Finally got a response (3 Feb) and got a sort of apology "I would also like to apologise for how our letter of 24 August 2020 was worded as it has conveyed the wrong impression to you" - so my fault then!.

Anyway, Eek has it correct - HMRC want the money!

Maybe some good news for the email - a some year's loans are now not included: 2002/3 and 2003/4 and some loans from 2004/5 (all from Edge). Some loans for 2004/5 are included (Greenbay) and so are 2005/6 (Edge again). According to HMRC I have open enquiries for these 2 returns opened Jan 2007 and Jan 2008 respectively.

I have some questions if any of you could help?
1) Presuambly HMRC can keep these open enquiries (CoP8 from memory) open indefinately? I might be remembering incorrectly, but I seem to recall that in the booket I was sent at the time, HMRC said they would keep me updated on a yearly basis. But that could well be a false memory.
2) Having agreed to settle several years ago for ALL my loans (HMRC then never actually asked for the money) would I be correct in thinking that the settlement amount will now decrease as not all my loans are included?
3) My original settlement amount didn't include any interest - are HMRC likely to include that now?

Thanks

[InNZ]

When it is that old and you are in NZ I wouldn't give it any more thought, you have evidence that the matter is closed.

Thanks - appreciated all the responses.

[dammit chloe]

Yup - I was only in one scheme Edge / Greenbay, in the early 2000's. Emigrated to NZ in 2005 so everything is definitly pre-2010

If you have an open year then that may be an issue.
If not I would keep the first letter then as proof that they have confirmed with you that the matter has been closed in all respects not just Loan Charge as per the letter. I received the same first letter but have had no follow up.

When it is that old and you are in NZ I wouldn't give it any more thought, you have evidence that the matter is closed.

[ChimpMaster]

Possible that you have an open year somewhere?

[InNZ]

I do wonder whether the letters relate to the same scheme usage.

Yup - I was only in one scheme Edge / Greenbay, in the early 2000's. Emigrated to NZ in 2005 so everything is definitly pre-2010

[dammit chloe]

Given the first letter is saying that the it was voluntary restitution does this not mean that those years are closed. Pre-2010 and closed means end of story AFAIK. If they were open there are still questions as per Hoey case.

It also clearly says we will not contact you further about your disguised remuneration scheme use. Not about loan charge, about scheme use. What is going on here?

I do wonder whether the letters relate to the same scheme usage.

[regron]

All the OP's loans are prior to December 2010 so why on earth are you talking about the Loan Charge - it's completely irrelevant here.

Fair point, I hadn't read the details properly. I will delete the posts. However, the argument of mis-information won't stand, I stand by that.

[eek]

Paying the Loan Charge was never a choice you could take to close matters. The underlying tax dispute is still in play. As an example:

You pay loan charge of 50k
The scheme you used still has to go through the courts
HMRC win, recalculate your liability and say you owe 60k, you have to cough up the additional 10k and the matter is closed.
HMRC lose, you don't get the 50K back, but you owe nothing more and the matter is closed.

Usual HMRC pattern of we win, or we win !!!

All the OP's loans are prior to December 2010 so why on earth are you talking about the Loan Charge - it's completely irrelevant here.

[Fred Bloggs]

The loan charge doesn't count for these loans

But that does not mean HMRC doesn't want the tax "owed" on those loans and they will be chasing up payment until all the court cases are concluded and HMRC either win the right to claim the money or the court cases give you get out clauses

So, does he/she pay HMRC or not? Presumably, there's a clock running with penalties accruing until the court cases are settled one way or another?

[eek]

The loan charge doesn't count for these loans

But that does not mean HMRC doesn't want the tax "owed" on those loans and they will be chasing up payment until all the court cases are concluded and HMRC either win the right to claim the money or the court cases give you get out clauses

[InNZ]

Last September I received a brown envelope from HMRC that fundamentally says that I don't have to pay the loan charge as the loans were made before 9th December 2010, and as such, I do not need to settle my disguised renumeration scheme use either. Yayyyy I thought.

However, this morning I received another brown envelope saying I still need to pay the tax on the amount I received from my loans paid before 9th December 2010.

So, have I misunderstood the first letter? Is this HMRC not knowing their behinds from their elbows? Or HMRC just on a phishing exercise?

Hopefully I've uploaded both letters.

You thoughts would be most appreciated.