Reply to: Shock! Horror! Daily Wail says NHS tourism costing billions.

[vetran]

no one has the slightest idea how much its costing the NHS because there is no investigation at the lowest levels.

for years the maternity ward has been stuffed with non english speaking patients.

The doctors surgery is filled with non english speaking or heavily accented patients.

these people are not born here, are they eligible for free care? - I personally doubt it, but I can't be sure.

I suspect in some areas it will be endemic and the figures will be huge. Until someone checks at point of use we won't know.

[vetran]

An obvious factor is education but I wonder if there is not some "Renaissance factor", a feeling of self belief that can grip a people. Unfortunately I think the UK has lost it.

FTFY

[xoggoth]

I actually get the impression that the problem is starting to get better with time, as many migration problems do

Not read that of Afro Caribbeans but it is certainly the case with Bangladeshis - in educational achievement they are moving up quite fast and that seems to correlate rather well with economic progress in Bangladesh.

Problems tend to get blamed on racism, exclusion etc but in reality the success or otherwise of minority groups here reflect the nature of the societies they come from. Look at relative success of those from China, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, of those from West African countries like Ghana and Eastern ones like Somalia. Within nations too, Kashmiris compared to Pakistan generally. Not all coincidence surely?

An obvious factor is education but I wonder if there is not some "Renaissance factor", a feeling of self belief that can grip a people. Unfortunately I think the UK is losing it.

[AtW]

[Mich the Tester]

My point related specifically to the fact that health has a much higher correlation with socio-economic status rather than race (HEOR is what I work in, so I know of what I speak).
From Xog's link, Indians and Black Africans (as opposed to Afro Carribeans) have similar health to white Britons. Now there's a surprise, not. Look at O-level results for the various groups and see the correlation.

I also think you're being a tad disingenous in your claims. There is disproportionately high criminality within the Afro-carribean community. That's not any sort of "construct".

It is if you count people as part of a 'community'; any afro-carribeans aren't actively involved in some Afro-Carribean community, but just get on with their lives like anyone else. But yes, there is indeed a high rate of convictions among Afro-Carribeans. Convictions is arguably also a construct, but never mind. The trouble is to work out why there's more crime in the places where a lot of Afro Carribeans live, and I actually get the impression that the problem is starting to get better with time, as many migration problems do. I don't want to deny the problems, I just can't stand the simplistic crap spouted by the Wail every day. I don't mind seeing the pictures of Kelly Brook though.

[sasguru]

Ah, but white people tend to get split up into working, middle, upper class, educated, semi-educated, employed, underemployed, unemployed, self employed etcetera because everyone recognises that they are spread across all categories of people and they form a majority and so it's pointless to say 'my car was stolen by a white person, so all white people must be car thieves.' Black folks are often just considered generically 'black' by the Wail and other idiots whether they're car thieves, shopkeepers or nuclear physicists, or indeed whether they're of Caribbean, west African, east African, southern African, Polynesian, Melanesian or any other descent. By splitting up white people into different subcategories while maintaining the generic 'black' construct you can make white folks look as good or as bad as you like. You could do that the other way around too, and state that there are lower crime rates among black university professors than among white people in general. You should know this, Mr Statistician.

My point related specifically to the fact that health has a much higher correlation with socio-economic status rather than race (HEOR is what I work in, so I know of what I speak).
From Xog's link, Indians and Black Africans (as opposed to Afro Carribeans) have similar health to white Britons. Now there's a surprise, not. Look at O-level results for the various groups and see the correlation.

I also think you're being a tad disingenous in your claims. There is disproportionately high criminality within the Afro-carribean community. That's not any sort of "construct".

[Mich the Tester]

I'm sure that splitting the indigenous white Britons into economic groups, rather than taking the average, would show chavs with significantly poor health outcomes due to obesity, drinking and drugs.

Ah, but white people tend to get split up into working, middle, upper class, educated, semi-educated, employed, underemployed, unemployed, self employed etcetera because everyone recognises that they are spread across all categories of people and they form a majority and so it's pointless to say 'my car was stolen by a white person, so all white people must be car thieves.' Black folks are often just considered generically 'black' by the Wail and other idiots whether they're car thieves, shopkeepers or nuclear physicists, or indeed whether they're of Caribbean, west African, east African, southern African, Polynesian, Melanesian or any other descent. By splitting up white people into different subcategories while maintaining the generic 'black' construct you can make white folks look as good or as bad as you like. You could do that the other way around too, and state that there are lower crime rates among black university professors than among white people in general. You should know this, Mr Statistician.

[sasguru]

UK Visa fee should include amount to act as medical insurance policy.

An eminently sensible idea but since it is so, a bureacracy will never implememnt it.

[AtW]

UK Visa fee should include amount to act as medical insurance policy.

[sasguru]

£20m? "200m? Actually the "billions" was reported by a senior doctor who could, just possibly, know what he is talking about.

Health tourism costing NHS billions, senior doctor claims - Telegraph

Also, "health tourism" is a term for visitors who come to the UK specifically to get treatment and it is dwarfed by the health cost of migrants and minorities (it makes no sense to dismiss consequences of previous immigration as unrelated to immigration). Some major groups have significantly worse health than average. A few links listed here:

MCB

Try and be less emotional and more logical and numerate.

1. The first link shows the true figure to be not in the "billions" as claimed but in the millions.
The difference is important since it shows if the problem is large or not compared to the NHS 106 billion budget.

2. The good doctor has no evidence for his claims, unlike the first link. Since he writes in the Spectator rather than in a medical journal, it's likely he has an overtly political motive. I work in the health economics/evidence industry and it is well known that doctors are not very numerate. It's a problem with their overly factual and less logical/numerate training. Two examples are Dr. Wakefield of MMR infamy and the very eminent doctor who got the tragic Mrs Clarke convicted of the murder of her 2 children based on his misunderstanding of statistics.

3. We are talking about health tourism. It is a separate issue whether British-born immigrants have worse health than the natives. Reading your links it seems successful groups, and hence rich, ones have better health than poor groups. I'm sure that splitting the indigenous white Britons into economic groups, rather than taking the average, would show chavs with significantly poor health outcomes due to obesity, drinking and drugs.

[Spacecadet]

Can they do that? My sister visited from Oz last month, took ill, and had to pay to see the GP and get a private prescription for antibiotics, because she's not UK resident.

Your sister probably made the mistake of telling them that she wasn't a resident in this country. Most foreigners are smarter than that and simply turn up at A&E or the health clinic drop in center and act as if they always live here. No one ever checks to make sure that someone getting treatment is eligible.

[xoggoth]

£20m? "200m? Actually the "billions" was reported by a senior doctor who could, just possibly, know what he is talking about.

Health tourism costing NHS billions, senior doctor claims - Telegraph

Also, "health tourism" is a term for visitors who come to the UK specifically to get treatment and it is dwarfed by the health cost of migrants and minorities (it makes no sense to dismiss consequences of previous immigration as unrelated to immigration). Some major groups have significantly worse health than average. A few links listed here:

MCB

[Old Greg]

Can they do that? My sister visited from Oz last month, took ill, and had to pay to see the GP and get a private prescription for antibiotics, because she's not UK resident.

Many (I understand) retain a UK address even if not resident and retain a GP registration.

[mudskipper]

Does the Mail quantify the cost of treatment for UK citizens overseas, who travel to the UK for NHS treatment they are not entitled to?

Can they do that? My sister visited from Oz last month, took ill, and had to pay to see the GP and get a private prescription for antibiotics, because she's not UK resident.

[Old Greg]

Does the Mail quantify the cost of treatment for UK citizens overseas, who travel to the UK for NHS treatment they are not entitled to?