Reply to: Moody's downgraded Italy three notches from AA2 to A2

[AtW]

They have historically has strong ties.

Interesting way to put it.

[doodab]

The Italian energy & industrial sector will likely do quite well out of Libya in the next few years as well. They have historically has strong ties.

[doodab]

Fiat?

Italian stocks (well stocks in general) have taken a kicking recently. Some of it is probably justified i.e. some of the banks, but a lot of it seems like selling for the sake of it, there are a lot of seemingly sound companies that have lost 1/3 of their value as well e.g. Enel which is a formerly state owned energy company that makes a lot of money and is hardly a company in trouble as far as I can tell.

Interestingly Fiat shares are up 8% today, Enel about 3.5%

[AtW]

There are some bargains to be had at the moment if you have the option to buy and hold for the long term.

Fiat?

[doodab]

It doesn't matter how perceptive you think the market is or isn't, remember that you are part of it, so how perceptive are you?

The market in this case is not one I am a part of at all, but my perception FWIW is that Italian stocks are slightly undervalued at the moment reflecting the negative sentiment towards the eurozone and Italy in particular. There are some bargains to be had at the moment if you have the option to buy and hold for the long term.

[Doggy Styles]

This is exactly the perception that has got the world into this mess in the first place. The "markets" were created by man to serve man. Unfortunately it seems the continued wagging of the dog by it's tail will ensure everything ends up royally ****ed.

Markets, it seems to me, don't work very well. We shouldn't rely on them to the extent that we do.

You've misquoted me to have a rant about capitalism.

I don't care about that, my context was simple. If the Italian government needs to sell their bit of Fiat to pay off their debts, the market will set the price and there isn't a better way of doing it. If sellers think the price is too low they don't sell, if buyers think it's too high they don't buy.

It goes without saying that if everyone knows you are selling because you have to, as in Italy's case, it will drive the price down.

It doesn't matter how perceptive you think the market is or isn't, remember that you are part of it, so how perceptive are you?

[Mich the Tester]

Does that make me a pinko commie bastard?

Yes, why not join in with the champagne? I'll order another magnum shall I?

[shaunbhoy]

Is that bad?

Yes. It means they have now got the Moody Blues.

[doodab]

Bloody hell, are you dealing out a free education?

Does that make me a pinko commie bastard?

[minestrone]

Never mind. It's obviously a bit above the heads of glorified bookies.

You seem to be so filled with resentment, quite amusing in a way.

[Mich the Tester]

It's another term for a false dichotomy.

False dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bloody hell, are you dealing out a free education?

[doodab]

What does an "'excluded middle' fallacy" mean?

It's another term for a false dichotomy.

False dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Mich the Tester]

What does an "'excluded middle' fallacy" mean?

Never mind. It's obviously a bit above the heads of glorified bookies.

[minestrone]

This is an 'excluded middle' fallacy AND a straw man fallacy used to discredit those who question whether the current market system is really working; discussion of the current situation does not need to involve ideas of socialism or communism, but an openness to alternative ideas that might just offer a glimmer of hope of getting out of this mess.

But of course, we're all becoming accustomed to fallacious reasoning on the part of financial egg spurts.

What does an "'excluded middle' fallacy" mean?

[Mich the Tester]

Wealth has been consumed by the individual and not the Government, if you like Cuba mitch there are always flights there, subsistence farming to knock your heart out, cigars and a Hemingway novel in some romantic notion of what socialism is.

I am going to stick with rampant capitalism over that system

This is an 'excluded middle' fallacy AND a straw man fallacy used to discredit those who question whether the current market system is really working; discussion of the current situation does not need to involve ideas of socialism or communism, but an openness to alternative ideas that might just offer a glimmer of hope of getting out of this mess.

But of course, we're all becoming accustomed to fallacious reasoning on the part of financial egg spurts.