Reply to: Contract renewal falls inside. Confusion ensues.

[Lost It]

I know I'd do what a lot of my freelance contractors are doing and walk away. If the company needs your services they should come knocking with a genuine offer or the Agency should uplift your fees so you are not going to be 40% worse off for taking on a similar role.

Not helpful but if we lay down and accept this the country will be stuffed because there won't be any point being freelancers.

In my line of work there have been mobile "freelance" zero hour contractors since before the Navvies dug canals. The country has relied on them for centuries and making that work force conform to a situation where they may as well take work local to where they live is going to hurt this country more than HMRC seem to understand.
Who is going to build all these Civil Infrastructure projects if the workforce cannot make it pay? If they are all on IR35 they won't want to go live in a caravan in a field with sod all in the way of facilities. Which I've done on road building jobs. If they are on IR35 there won't be the money to pay for accommodation in B&B's. April will be the splash, the ripples will sink the gravy boat. I'm not taking any role's on until I know for sure where I stand.

Not been subject to joined up thinking has it?

Sorry but I think your best option is to leave and seek work elsewhere. Unless you really are a freelancer in a pseudo permie role.

[Platypus]

Should I close the LTD company as existing contract finish at end of month?

2) ... shutting it may not stop HMRC coming knocking in the future)

Personally, I'd be thinking very seriously about closing it down. It may not stop HMRC, but also it might. Why risk it, I'd be asking myself.

[burnzdog]

You can't really. Top of the risk tree are straight outside to inside same work types. Very easy wins if HMRC come knocking.

Close behind is outside to inside but different role. The inside one might not have bearing on the outside one unless its a policy decision like no subs or something. They'd have to tondo some digging and out a case together. You would thing there will be enough of the other guys to keep them busy but who knows.

We are only summising all the above of course. We don't really know at the end of the day.

The devil is always in the details so find out why the agent doesn't agree.

Thank you for your input.

[jamesbrown]

Ok, so going forward if i take a renewal contract inside IR35 how can I protect myself. Or is this not worth the risk? I am struggling to understand my position in all of this.

If you have an actual SDS from the client that says you’re outside, then I don’t see what the agent can do about it, other than not process this contract if they really want to avoid the risk. They have no role in deciding your status, only in operating PAYE (or, in this case, not). But do you really have an SDS from the client that says that? If so, then I think the agent would be operating PAYE incorrectly if they ignored it. So I think the agent needs a kick, which either means they accept the risk or they step aside and let another Fee Payer accept it, such as the client (direct).

[northernladuk]

Ok, so going forward if i take a renewal contract inside IR35 how can I protect myself. Or is this not worth the risk? I am struggling to understand my position in all of this.

You can't really. Top of the risk tree are straight outside to inside same work types. Very easy wins if HMRC come knocking.

Close behind is outside to inside but different role. The inside one might not have bearing on the outside one unless its a policy decision like no subs or something. They'd have to tondo some digging and out a case together. You would thing there will be enough of the other guys to keep them busy but who knows.

We are only summising all the above of course. We don't really know at the end of the day.

The devil is always in the details so find out why the agent doesn't agree.

[northernladuk]

Only slightly condescending. The rest of it is genuine advice/pointers.

[burnzdog]

Yes you do. You can leave.



It could yes as the client (assuming they end up siding with the agency) is probably stating something that is company policy is putting you inside I. E. No subs or they want personal service etc. You aren't in the highest bracket of straight outside to inside but you are close.

You realise this is affecting 10s of thousands of contractors don't you?

What role did you do before and what are you doing now?

Have they stated why it is inside. You should get an SDS with an explanation why. If not go and ask for it.

P. S. Contractors don't fill roles by the way, they deliver services /products. Permies have roles. Pedantic point but worth making.

I provide professional services. I am hired on the strength of this service. The point is everyone has left to the last minute, regardless of SDS it would appear they are going by what is safest. This process is a matter of saving ones ass rather than a legitimate process.

Please don't be condescending. I'm not an idiot, my questions were based around the situation whereby I have no control. I am simply asking for advice, I'm not looking for sympathy.

[northernladuk]

So I have no option other than to take the position inside via umbrella.

Yes you do. You can leave.

If I take the new contract does that implicate the validity of the previous contract being outside? Although the role is different?

It could yes as the client (assuming they end up siding with the agency) is probably stating something that is company policy is putting you inside I. E. No subs or they want personal service etc. You aren't in the highest bracket of straight outside to inside but you are close.

Am I right to feel a little hard done by here!?!

You realise this is affecting 10s of thousands of contractors don't you?

What role did you do before and what are you doing now?

Have they stated why it is inside. You should get an SDS with an explanation why. If not go and ask for it.

P. S. Contractors don't fill roles by the way, they deliver services /products. Permies have roles. Pedantic point but worth making.

[burnzdog]

That's separate though, unrelated to their responsibilities under the forthcoming ITEPA (aka new IR35). If the client doesn't have work for the agent, there's no work for the agent. Client can decide to go with another agent. Regardless, they have responsibilities under ITEPA, as does the Fee Payer.

Ok, so going forward if i take a renewal contract inside IR35 how can I protect myself. Or is this not worth the risk? I am struggling to understand my position in all of this.

[GhostofTarbera]

The company won't pay an increase in the day rate so I'm now looking to be earning a bit less.

Not so, it’s a hell of a lot less (and no expenses) think 40% rate cut to be in ball park


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[jamesbrown]

When you say the client is the status guard, they aren't if they have contractual obligations to the agent. For me best case scenario would be for him to release me.

That's separate though, unrelated to their responsibilities under the forthcoming ITEPA (aka new IR35). If the client doesn't have work for the agent, there's no work for the agent. Client can decide to go with another agent. Regardless, they have responsibilities under ITEPA, as does the Fee Payer.

[burnzdog]

OK, well get a different agent. The client is the status guard. The Fee Payer is liable, in the first instance. So, yeah, you can understand that some might be nervous, but agents are expendable relative to clients. At the very least, if you have the client SDS to hand and it says outside, then I think you're in an unusual and (much) less risky position than others.

When you say the client is the status guard, they aren't if they have contractual obligations to the agent. For me best case scenario would be for him to release me.

[burnzdog]

OK, well get a different agent. The client is the status guard. The Fee Payer is liable, in the first instance. So, yeah, you can understand that some might be nervous, but agents are expendable relative to clients. At the very least, if you have the client SDS to hand and it says outside, then I think you're in an unusual and (much) less risky position than others.

Well I can't use another agent as this guy has exclusivity. Plus the SDS isnt concrete as it's not evidently working in this scenario. I dont mind going inside ir35 but I just don't know how to protect myself for the previous 12 months.

[jamesbrown]

Yep pretty much. Agent playing it safe, and they cannot full agree on it being outside.

OK, well get a different agent. The client is the status guard. The Fee Payer is liable, in the first instance. So, yeah, you can understand that some might be nervous, but agents are expendable relative to clients. At the very least, if you have the client SDS to hand and it says outside, then I think you're in an unusual and (much) less risky position than others.

[burnzdog]

So let me get this straight. The client has issued an SDS that indicates the contract is outside. The agency, as Fee Payer, has refused to accept this.

Yep pretty much. Agent playing it safe, and they cannot full agree on it being outside.