Reply to: Sajid Javid tax avoider?

[DealorNoDeal]

I pay quite a bit with cash. People generally prefer it, and I don't think they're evading tax. It saves them the hassle of paying in cheques. One person offers payment by bank transfer but she's been let down loads of time with people not paying and having to chase them.

I do know one (wealthy) person locally who never pays in cash. They insist on invoices for all manner of goods and services, and then put everything through their company.

[vetran]

anyone who pays for services in cash is a tax avoider, which I guess would include everyone in the HOC and HOL and most of the population.

The person who receives the cash for services and then fails to pay tax on them is a tax evader.

Now the person who pays may be tax evading if they are aware that tax will not be paid.

Neither side is likely to be a tax avoider.

There are many reasons to request cash for services a major one is the customer can't cancel the payment.

[DealorNoDeal]

I run a business. Paying salary, Yes I do. Paying divs yes I do but it's form the betterment of the company and not me. As a director my obligation is to see the company succeed. No doing anything illegal or immoral like paying lower tax than uk whilst operating in uk.

Will you be able to continue doing that under the proposed private sector off payroll legislation?

If not, then the Government regards you as a tax avoider.

[Platypus]

But still not a tax avoider. I think the wording is incorrect and it depends on how you operate. I run a business. Paying salary, Yes I do. Paying divs yes I do but it's form the betterment of the company and not me. As a director my obligation is to see the company succeed. No doing anything illegal or immoral like paying lower tax than uk whilst operating in uk.

I'm sorry but to Joe Bloggs paying PAYE, you're a tax avoider. According to the HMRC definition, you're a tax avoider. Disagree all you like that the definition is wrong You are not paying your "fair share". Your effective rate of tax is less than a nurse or carer or other noble professional.

And to say you're not avoiding tax makes you a hypocrite too. This "benefit of the company" thing is garbage and you know it!

#justsayin #nothingpersonal

[JohntheBike]

who here isn't a tax avoider?

anyone who pays for services in cash is a tax avoider, which I guess would include everyone in the HOC and HOL and most of the population.

[vetran]

An ISA is no more tax avoidance than buying jaffa cakes instead of chocolate digestives.

Where did your 'general definition' come from?

investopedia but there are plenty of other sources. And yes an ISA an entirely legal method of avoiding tax as is being outside IR35 which is why HMRC keep getting their asses handed to them on a plate in the courts.

Tax Avoidance Definition


ooh sip the HMRC sip deep cool aid. Or not.

Tax avoidance: What are the rules? - BBC News

Now these loan schemes are quite obviously tax evasion and have failed in the court again and again. The sad thing is HMRC decided to let them run then pursued the clients not the organisers to kill the source so they are busy making people bankrupt years after the fact.

[cosmic]

Do you pay more tax than you absolutely need to?
For example even if outside IR35, do pay yourself salary rather than dividends?
No?
Thought not.

You're a tax avoider.

It's a scale like this
1) PAYE so have no choice or method in how to handle their affairs.
2) Tax avoider. Have some choice around when and how they handle their affairs such that a reduced tax burden is achieved. Divis rather than salary, retaining profit in the company to avoid higher rate personal tax, etc.
3) Tax avoider using artificial schemes later found out later to be DAF. Loan charges, films, other overly complex ideas that could faull under GAAR.
4) Tax evader. Choose not pay what is legitimately owed (some would say #3 is in this bracket)
5) Fraudsters. Lie and cheat to hide what should be owed.

All no appart from #2.

But still not a tax avoider. I think the wording is incorrect and it depends on how you operate. I run a business. Paying salary, Yes I do. Paying divs yes I do but it's form the betterment of the company and not me. As a director my obligation is to see the company succeed. No doing anything illegal or immoral like paying lower tax than uk whilst operating in uk.

HMRC can label what they want. They are not the law and the law is what I'm following not HMRC. Most if not all business operate as I do appart from complex multinational companies that are real tax avoiders.

[Old Greg]

general definition



HMRC defionition




so it depends on the definition you choose.

I am perfectly happy avoiding tax by having an ISA.

Wait till Jezzy gets in!

An ISA is no more tax avoidance than buying jaffa cakes instead of chocolate digestives.

Where did your 'general definition' come from?

[vetran]

No. 2 is a misrepresentation of the term 'tax avoidance'. People have the choice to save via an ISA or via a standard savings account. Choosing an ISA in not tax avoidance. People who say it is are often trying to muddy the waters.

general definition

What Is Tax Avoidance?

Tax avoidance is the use of legal methods to modify an individual's financial situation to lower the amount of income tax owed. This is generally accomplished by claiming the permissible deductions and credits. This practice differs from tax evasion which uses illegal methods, such as underreporting income, to avoid paying taxes.

HMRC defionition

Tax avoidance involves bending the rules of the tax system to gain a tax advantage that Parliament never intended.
It often involves contrived, artificial transactions that serve little or no purpose other than to produce this advantage. It involves operating within the letter, but not the spirit, of the law.

so it depends on the definition you choose.

I am perfectly happy avoiding tax by having an ISA.

Wait till Jezzy gets in!

[Old Greg]

Do you pay more tax than you absolutely need to?
For example even if outside IR35, do pay yourself salary rather than dividends?
No?
Thought not.

You're a tax avoider.

It's a scale like this
1) PAYE so have no choice or method in how to handle their affairs.
2) Tax avoider. Have some choice around when and how they handle their affairs such that a reduced tax burden is achieved. Divis rather than salary, retaining profit in the company to avoid higher rate personal tax, etc.
3) Tax avoider using artificial schemes later found out later to be DAF. Loan charges, films, other overly complex ideas that could faull under GAAR.
4) Tax evader. Choose not pay what is legitimately owed (some would say #3 is in this bracket)
5) Fraudsters. Lie and cheat to hide what should be owed.

No. 2 is a misrepresentation of the term 'tax avoidance'. People have the choice to save via an ISA or via a standard savings account. Choosing an ISA in not tax avoidance. People who say it is are often trying to muddy the waters.

[Lance]

Me. I run a business to the law. So not a tax avoider.

You might be by the sound of it

Do you pay more tax than you absolutely need to?
For example even if outside IR35, do pay yourself salary rather than dividends?
No?
Thought not.

You're a tax avoider.

It's a scale like this
1) PAYE so have no choice or method in how to handle their affairs.
2) Tax avoider. Have some choice around when and how they handle their affairs such that a reduced tax burden is achieved. Divis rather than salary, retaining profit in the company to avoid higher rate personal tax, etc.
3) Tax avoider using artificial schemes later found out later to be DAF. Loan charges, films, other overly complex ideas that could faull under GAAR.
4) Tax evader. Choose not pay what is legitimately owed (some would say #3 is in this bracket)
5) Fraudsters. Lie and cheat to hide what should be owed.

[BrilloPad]

Nothing illegal about avoidance. Evasion on the other hand...

I don't think HMRC understand the difference.

BTW, if true, the saj would be guilty of aggressive tax avoidance. Which is still legal. Not sure the voters would understand that.

[Amanensia]

Nothing illegal about avoidance. Evasion on the other hand...

[cosmic]

who here isn't a tax avoider?

Me. I run a business to the law. So not a tax avoider.

You might be by the sound of it

[Lance]

who here isn't a tax avoider?