Reply to: Attitude towards working hours

[SimonMac]

I didn't think about what happens if I work extra, the place I am at the moment basically does flexi time so the nights I stay locally in a hotel I work late so I can leave early on a Friday.

If there is a major release that is out of hours I won't hesitate to stay exceptionally late (have done 22:00 - 23:00 before) I won't bill them as I see it as still part of my "day", as long as someone calls Dominos with ClientCo's credit card I'll not say a word.

[perplexed]

Grrr...

[monobrow]

Nah.

Ah ha!

[perplexed]

IB?

Nah.

[monobrow]

Private.

I was also quite daring one day and wore white socks...

IB?

[perplexed]

public sector?

Private.

I was also quite daring one day and wore white socks...

[monobrow]

Initially six months, and yes, got a renewal.

public sector?

[perplexed]

How long was this contract for and did you get a renewal?

Initially six months, and yes, got a renewal.

[monobrow]

Probably. Except in this case, the Pm was the one being the utter arse, as evidenced by his leaving shortly afterwards.

I don't believe core hours would be an ultimate indicator of control. IMO, it would however be an element of control. Why let little things like that add up? As I said, I'm aware of the need at times to interact with permies, hence I always schedule my hours to provide the maximum overlap. That's my choice, rather than being mandated to.

How long was this contract for and did you get a renewal?

[perplexed]

and your card would probably be marked as being a pain in the ass!

I'm not convinced being asked to do specific core hours indicates control. What is more important is how you do the work, do they control that?

Probably. Except in this case, the Pm was the one being the utter arse, as evidenced by his leaving shortly afterwards.

I don't believe core hours would be an ultimate indicator of control. IMO, it would however be an element of control. Why let little things like that add up? As I said, I'm aware of the need at times to interact with permies, hence I always schedule my hours to provide the maximum overlap. That's my choice, rather than being mandated to.

[jmo21]

If it was a major problem for the end client, then the simple answer I gave to the agent was that the contract would need to be amended to include those core hours, with an adjustment to the rate to reflect inconvenience / potential IR35 liability incurred on my companies side. Which I knew end client and agent would never do, plus I wouldn't have accepted any core hours clause.

and your card would probably be marked as being a pain in the ass!

I'm not convinced being asked to do specific core hours indicates control. What is more important is how you do the work, do they control that?

[perplexed]

"I think thats the point most people are missing, even though we do get controlled over hours in some respect, we should not be controlled as a LTD company, but in the real world there are some grey areas."

Agree.

And our aim has to be to minimise the grey areas as far as possible to reduce any potential liability.

If I'm contracted to bill daily, on say a max 37.5 hours a week, then that's what I aim for. If the end client then wants to apply restrictions ( start 9, end 5:30, mandatory lunch time ), then I'd have misgivings. I'd choose the hours I work to fit in as far as possible with the client to avoid any inconvenience, but other factors apply - ie if it's a longish drive, I like to avoid traffic. If the client site open early in those circumstances, I like to get in early, leave earlier. Given it's almost inevitable that work will involve interacting with permies, it benefits both parties to overlap as much as possible.

Had a situation once when a PM in a client I was working for ranted to the agency - because I wasn't abiding by the core hours permies were contractually obliged to work. Agency then ranted at me. I pointed out I'd fully worked the contracted hours, I'd given the end client additional hours free of charge where I deemed it to be in both parties benefit. Agent then claimed core hours as a mantra, until I asked him to explicitly tell me the contract clause that contained them. End of discussion. As it turned out, other PMs within the same client had no such problem with other contractors doing exactly the same - just this one guy had a stick firmly up his arse. The PM left the client a few weeks later.

If it was a major problem for the end client, then the simple answer I gave to the agent was that the contract would need to be amended to include those core hours, with an adjustment to the rate to reflect inconvenience / potential IR35 liability incurred on my companies side. Which I knew end client and agent would never do, plus I wouldn't have accepted any core hours clause.

[Greg Longshaft]

Whilst I can appreciate clients may want core hours abided by for one thing, wouldn't that count as control over *how* us contractors actually work?

If I'm on an hourly rate, I don't mind occasionally giving a little bit extra. Nothing major. If it becomes "expected" that I should work outside the number of contracted hours for a week, then there's a big problem.

Given most contracts I've had with a daily rate have specified a total number of billable hours for the week, then I try to abide by that. Again, if some latitude is required occasionally, fine. Regularly, no. After all, if an end client "expects" me to work outside the contract for their benefit, it makes me wonder precisely why arrangements for those additional hours either weren't budgeted for or specified within the contract.

"I think thats the point most people are missing, even though we do get controlled over hours in some respect, we should not be controlled as a LTD company, but in the real world there are some grey areas."

[perplexed]

Whilst I can appreciate clients may want core hours abided by for one thing, wouldn't that count as control over *how* us contractors actually work?

If I'm on an hourly rate, I don't mind occasionally giving a little bit extra. Nothing major. If it becomes "expected" that I should work outside the number of contracted hours for a week, then there's a big problem.

Given most contracts I've had with a daily rate have specified a total number of billable hours for the week, then I try to abide by that. Again, if some latitude is required occasionally, fine. Regularly, no. After all, if an end client "expects" me to work outside the contract for their benefit, it makes me wonder precisely why arrangements for those additional hours either weren't budgeted for or specified within the contract.

[stacks]

Working time at my current place is a 7 hour day, arrive any time between 8 & 10 and go home between 4 & 6.

I'm in by 08:30 and I normally get the 17:30 train back so they get an extra hour from me each day. The permies all stick to 7 hour days so no pressure for me to keep up with them

I've always just done the hours I need to in all my contracts and never ever worked consistently about and beyond 7.5 hours a day. Yes there exceptions but it's never the norm.