Reply to: State of the London IT Finance contract market

[AnthonyQuinn]

Ah, a bit more niche than the generic .NET stuff mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

I agree. And yet Solvency ii is still very woolly at the moment. what skills (aprt from being aware of general legislation) do you need, i cant imagine

[Scary]

algorithmix and Solvency II

Ah, a bit more niche than the generic .NET stuff mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

[ChimpMaster]

Quite likely they asked you the most ridiculous questions because, frankly, they didn't like you - for whatever reason - and hence wanted to make you look bad. The more questions you failed to answer, the easier it was for them to give reasons to management to reject you. Perhaps they are protecting their own jobs, or maybe they're just having jokes and you'll be on some crackpot hidden-cam TV show.

£800 is still a high rate for the City. £500 is more the norm for middle/back office.

[rsingh]

Thanks for that Jobs.

Not sure where the earlier poster got the impression I have a high opinion of myself and the comment by the other guy (singh or something) is just typical of the kind of idiots I've been interviewed by recently. I was under the impression the roles I've been interviewed for were concerned with WPF and associated design patterns and frameworks not what IL the compiler generates for a given statement or a particular algorithm that is widely used in University where incidentally I did get a 1st in Computer Science but it was years ago! Can anybody on here who passed their driving test 20 years ago actually remember much of the highway code? But you know where to look if you need to brush up on something right?

There's a common theme in some of these interviews. The interviewer(s) are about 30 years of age. Immature and inexperienced in actual business. Reasonably fresh enough out of Uni to remember (and actually attach some kind of importance) to teaching algorithms. One of the best developers I know didn't actually go to University but he has the ability to simplify complex problems and deliver elegant solutions. I know who I'd hire if it was between him and 'Text-book Tim'.

And btw, the £ 800 isn't being paid to source 'the best of the best'. There's a lack of developers out there with WPF skills so the rate rises. It's called 'supply and demand' singhy-boy.

I was going to post a more considered reply to this but decided that I couldn't be bothered. In short, perhaps It's your social skills letting you down.

[AnthonyQuinn]

That's good to hear, what skills?

algorithmix and Solvency II

[oliverson]

That's possibly a fair comment, however does that make the code which is produced so much better because the contractor happens to know what is happening under the skin in finite detail?

I happen to have a clean driving license and accident claims record which make me a cheap option to insure by the insurance companies (like sub £300 pa for a 2Ltr family car, fully everything). But as I cannot explain in detail how the diesel lump sitting in front of me works, should the the insurance companies load my policy? I mean, I know that if I push the accelerator pedal down the car goes faster and the engine revs go up whilst the fuel in the tank goes down, but beyond the basics of how a diesel engine works I really haven't a clue about all of the processes involved between fuel arriving from the fuel tank and exhaust gases leaving the tailpipe. Do I need to know in order to drive the car? I don't think I do.

I have worked alongside people who have all of the textbook answers relating to the internals of .NET code, and who would get thru such questioning very easily. But they were sh1te programmers who struggled to produce a 'Hello World' program. Conversely, I've worked alongside others who would fail such questioning big time - but who produce robust and complex application code time after time because their understanding of the bigger picture and business environment is so much better. Which of those should I hire for my £800?

I tend to think that when someone is hiring and presents a quiz requiring textbook knowledge it says quite a bit about the individual who is hiring. They probably think of themselves as the dogs dangly bits, and maybe they are. But if I were leading a team which was charged with producing a software application I'd look first at the applicants previous experience and general abilities, and the textbook answer quiz probably wouldn't form part of my interview process. I don't actually care whether the candidate can explain in fine detail how polymorphism and overloading work - if my boss is expecting me to deliver an application then the number of PhD programmers I've employed on my team wouldn't necessarily produce the results, and I might have hired a very expensive team which hit the bottom line big time.

It's like the job spec which says "must have degree, minimum 2.1". Rules me out straightaway - due to personal circumstances back then I didn't go to Uni, but that doesn't explain the fact that my CV is full of achievements etc. Furthermore, how reasonable is it to make candidate selection based upon a degree course which was attended maybe 30 years ago, the content of which was based upon dinosaur programming languages like COBOL which weren't OOPS? So you rule out the old timers who don't meet the job spec, but have all the experience and knowledge, and instead interview and hire a recent college grad who is still cutting his teeth on understanding how real systems work.

Thanks for that Jobs.

Not sure where the earlier poster got the impression I have a high opinion of myself and the comment by the other guy (singh or something) is just typical of the kind of idiots I've been interviewed by recently. I was under the impression the roles I've been interviewed for were concerned with WPF and associated design patterns and frameworks not what IL the compiler generates for a given statement or a particular algorithm that is widely used in University where incidentally I did get a 1st in Computer Science but it was years ago! Can anybody on here who passed their driving test 20 years ago actually remember much of the highway code? But you know where to look if you need to brush up on something right?

There's a common theme in some of these interviews. The interviewer(s) are about 30 years of age. Immature and inexperienced in actual business. Reasonably fresh enough out of Uni to remember (and actually attach some kind of importance) to teaching algorithms. One of the best developers I know didn't actually go to University but he has the ability to simplify complex problems and deliver elegant solutions. I know who I'd hire if it was between him and 'Text-book Tim'.

And btw, the £ 800 isn't being paid to source 'the best of the best'. There's a lack of developers out there with WPF skills so the rate rises. It's called 'supply and demand' singhy-boy.

[JobsAGoodUn]

If I was paying 800 pounds a day, I would expect a hire to know all this and more. I would be expecting the best - not a jobbing contractor.

That's possibly a fair comment, however does that make the code which is produced so much better because the contractor happens to know what is happening under the skin in finite detail?

I happen to have a clean driving license and accident claims record which make me a cheap option to insure by the insurance companies (like sub £300 pa for a 2Ltr family car, fully everything). But as I cannot explain in detail how the diesel lump sitting in front of me works, should the the insurance companies load my policy? I mean, I know that if I push the accelerator pedal down the car goes faster and the engine revs go up whilst the fuel in the tank goes down, but beyond the basics of how a diesel engine works I really haven't a clue about all of the processes involved between fuel arriving from the fuel tank and exhaust gases leaving the tailpipe. Do I need to know in order to drive the car? I don't think I do.

I have worked alongside people who have all of the textbook answers relating to the internals of .NET code, and who would get thru such questioning very easily. But they were sh1te programmers who struggled to produce a 'Hello World' program. Conversely, I've worked alongside others who would fail such questioning big time - but who produce robust and complex application code time after time because their understanding of the bigger picture and business environment is so much better. Which of those should I hire for my £800?

I tend to think that when someone is hiring and presents a quiz requiring textbook knowledge it says quite a bit about the individual who is hiring. They probably think of themselves as the dogs dangly bits, and maybe they are. But if I were leading a team which was charged with producing a software application I'd look first at the applicants previous experience and general abilities, and the textbook answer quiz probably wouldn't form part of my interview process. I don't actually care whether the candidate can explain in fine detail how polymorphism and overloading work - if my boss is expecting me to deliver an application then the number of PhD programmers I've employed on my team wouldn't necessarily produce the results, and I might have hired a very expensive team which hit the bottom line big time.

It's like the job spec which says "must have degree, minimum 2.1". Rules me out straightaway - due to personal circumstances back then I didn't go to Uni, but that doesn't explain the fact that my CV is full of achievements etc. Furthermore, how reasonable is it to make candidate selection based upon a degree course which was attended maybe 30 years ago, the content of which was based upon dinosaur programming languages like COBOL which weren't OOPS? So you rule out the old timers who don't meet the job spec, but have all the experience and knowledge, and instead interview and hire a recent college grad who is still cutting his teeth on understanding how real systems work.

[rsingh]

One of today's failures was an £ 800 a day contract the other a measly £ 600. Big deal. It would be the same if it were £ 400 and £ 200 down here (London). It's like the interviewers have a semi-h4rdon if they know something that you don't. Like I really care what IL (Intermediate Language) is emitted by the compiler with respect to the 'yield return' statement. Nor do I lose too much sleep if I don't fully understand exactly how the gargable collector works. (Doctor, I'm having nightmares about gen0, gen1 and gen2 areas of the managed heap....). Or how about "couldn't name ALL the C# 'modifiers' (I don't just mean access modifiers I mean everything else in the language). cnuts.

If I was paying 800 pounds a day, I would expect a hire to know all this and more. I would be expecting the best - not a jobbing contractor.

[moorfield]

Well, clearly they are looking for people who do understand the inner workings.

Perhaps you're not as good as you think you are? You might have quite a bit of commercial experience but you're certainly not an expert by the sound of it.

The interviewer also wants to know how you react under pressure particularly if that £800 is a front office support / prod support kind of job. The way you react to hard questions in tech interviews is a good way of assessing this.

[doodab]

Like I really care what IL (Intermediate Language) is emitted by the compiler with respect to the 'yield return' statement. Nor do I lose too much sleep if I don't fully understand exactly how the gargable collector works. (Doctor, I'm having nightmares about gen0, gen1 and gen2 areas of the managed heap....). Or how about "couldn't name ALL the C# 'modifiers' (I don't just mean access modifiers I mean everything else in the language). cnuts.

Well, clearly they are looking for people who do understand the inner workings.

Perhaps you're not as good as you think you are? You might have quite a bit of commercial experience but you're certainly not an expert by the sound of it.

[BlasterBates]

Just had a look it's all this windows .NET C# crap at the moment

It looks to me that the Solaris, Sybase C++, sit in a comfortable office away from the traders, gravy train has finally disappeared.

Generally guys how is this looking??

[oliverson]

This doesn't look good. Has to be said I've always experienced a battery of test trying to get a contract there in the City. Once, about 7 years ago, went through a prestage written test, then an interview with the technical guys including write an algorithm to get out of maze while I'm staring at you, and then a final interview with the business guy ("you don't have to give me the answer straight away, I'll give you 30 seconds to think about it")...which I failed, for a 350 quid a day contract. Finally got a 250 quid a day contract in Luxembourg. So it isn't new it just seems like the bad days have returned. At least the rates are better.

One of today's failures was an £ 800 a day contract the other a measly £ 600. Big deal. It would be the same if it were £ 400 and £ 200 down here (London). It's like the interviewers have a semi-h4rdon if they know something that you don't. Like I really care what IL (Intermediate Language) is emitted by the compiler with respect to the 'yield return' statement. Nor do I lose too much sleep if I don't fully understand exactly how the gargable collector works. (Doctor, I'm having nightmares about gen0, gen1 and gen2 areas of the managed heap....). Or how about "couldn't name ALL the C# 'modifiers' (I don't just mean access modifiers I mean everything else in the language). cnuts.

[BlasterBates]

This doesn't look good. Has to be said I've always experienced a battery of test trying to get a contract there in the City. Once, about 7 years ago, went through a prestage written test, then an interview with the technical guys including write an algorithm to get out of maze while I'm staring at you, and then a final interview with the business guy ("you don't have to give me the answer straight away, I'll give you 30 seconds to think about it")...which I failed, for a 350 quid a day contract. Finally got a 250 quid a day contract in Luxembourg. So it isn't new it just seems like the bad days have returned. At least the rates are better.

[oliverson]

I chanced upon this thread having today received two rejections from final stage interviews. To say I'm disillusioned (again - this happened 6 months ago) would be an almighty understatement.

Todays rejections:

1. Absolutley blazed the final stage interview. My performance was spot on. No proper feedback yet but I do know this company has to exhaust all 'external avenues' (read foreigners coming here knicking the contracts for peanuts) so I'm drawing my own conclusions there. A bit like 8 months ago when I had 4 rounds of interviews with the same lot and same result.
2. Struggled in one area of the final stage interview. The 'heres a piece of paper and a pen. write the code body to return an endless stream of numbers from the Fibonacci series while the three of us here stare at you across the table looking at our watches'. I never perform well under this kind of pressure and I didn't here. It's funny how one area of testing surpasses all the rest of the tests where you did succeed. How much weight it carries compare to every other one that got you to that stage isn't it?

So, last time around I was trying to break into the Microsoft WPF contracts though I had limited commercial experience. This time around I have a load of experience and haven't struggled for interviews but the interview stages are compeltely ridiculous. On that subject another final stager I had involved being thrust a piece of paper with some requirements on them and a guy sat over my shoulder while I fumbled around on the keyboard for an hour trying to deliver what was expected. Feedback - looking for somebody more 'hard core TDD'. For a UI role? Come on.

So, I share the original posters view and despair but I'm not going to give it the timelines he refers to. I finish down here in the City in one weeks time and I'm f***ing off to do something else with my life. OK the money won't be there but neither will this c**p.

[Scary]

Just had me mate turn contractor for the first time. Snapped up a 550 pd rate straightaway. and is holding out for more. Insurance area. The market must be white hot.

That's good to hear, what skills?