Reply to: From hour rates to day rates

[Magic]

Do not stand for this rubbish

Now I know what is going on.

I've been given 3 additional projects to look after this week: two on Monday and another this afternoon.

I reckon I need about ½ day + 1 day + 2½ days + 2 days + 1½ days per week to properly look after the five projects I now have.

No wonder they want me to switch from hourly to professional day. 12 hours a day for 8 hours pay.

I shall decline the change to the contract and see what reaction that gets...

... and start checking out Jobserve ...

You have to allow flexible to a degree, I work for money not so someone can take the p1$$, life is to short and more people should stand up to these bean counters. If you have the strength of character it normally works.

I had one boss, who started shouting at me, I just laughed and told her that I could hear her

I got a lot of resect from others after that including the permie's who were all scared of her!

email people especially about certain aspects of the project, required time to work etc, you can then use it to nail them in the future, I am very good at it, becoming a real problem now as I just laugh too loud at times.

[thunderlizard]

extra projects

too right numpty! Were these 3 new projects in your contract schedule too?
It might be worth responding a tad more corporately. Imagine this.


<customer> Hello BT

<BT> hello customer

<customer> You know how we've been paying you £100 a month + 10p/minute (averaging £180/month total) to supply our office with a landline? Well we are making some changes to your contract. Firstly we are going to pay you exactly £180/month and it will be all-inclusive. That's because we're planning to use the phone loads more in future and we don't want it to cost us any more. In fact, we're opening another 3 offices and we want you to supply phone lines for them too, all within the £180/month. Here's where you sign.

<BT>Now hold on a minute..!

[Numpty]

Now I know what is going on.

I've been given 3 additional projects to look after this week: two on Monday and another this afternoon.

I reckon I need about ½ day + 1 day + 2½ days + 2 days + 1½ days per week to properly look after the five projects I now have.

No wonder they want me to switch from hourly to professional day. 12 hours a day for 8 hours pay.

I shall decline the change to the contract and see what reaction that gets...

... and start checking out Jobserve ...

[Hex]

That's how it goes. You have to decide what you do then. One contract I was on, the end client took over and imposed exactly that (hourly timesheet, a day of < 8h was calculated pro rata, a day of > 8h truncated to 8h).

That's the situation where I am at the moment. It works OK here. There is give and take. I work the odd 10 hour day where it's needed and I only bill for 8 hours. Other times I'll come in later than usual and/or go earlier. I bill for 8 hours. I might go to the dentist the odd morning and not start work until 11. I bill for 8 hours.

The way I see it, a PWD means 8 hours here so that's what I interpret it as for billing. The hours I work are up to me. If I took the p**s I'm sure they'd complain, but I don't.

I was once asked to stay late do help out with an interview. the manager knew I'd not get paid any extra for it, so he suggested I put the time down on the weekend so I would get paid the hours. I actually didn't bother as it had only taken me 2 hours and it showed good will which I would get paid back for the next time I needed to turn up later than usual.

The place before this was similar - I put every day's times down as 9 until 6 with 1 hour for lunch no matter when I turned up, went home and no matter how long I took for lunch.

Obviously making this work depends on how well you get on with whoever signs the timesheets.

[NotAllThere]

... Of course I could say to the agency that they owe me anyway but they'd get nasty about that.

huh? why's that a problem?

If I'm only paid for 8 hours a day, I only work for 8 hours a day. I've currently got two contracts - one pwd and one hourly. The pwd don't care too much how much work I do, so long as the work gets done. The hourly one only cares about the records from the electronic time recorrding. I can work at the former remotely from the latter... :

[expat]

The contract said "a professional day". No extra detail.

ClientCo said "that means at least 8 hours per day".

Agency said "it means whatever the client says it means".

That's how it goes. You have to decide what you do then. One contract I was on, the end client took over and imposed exactly that (hourly timesheet, a day of < 8h was calculated pro rata, a day of > 8h truncated to 8h).

I proposed to bill real hours regardless, and the guy from the client said it would then go to Accts & Legal, and nobody would even look at paying any of it for months. Of course I could say to the agency that they owe me anyway but they'd get nasty about that. All unjustified, all breaches of contract. But that is how they work, the reality is if you don't like it, don't work with them.

I prefer money to arguments. I left.

[ratewhore]

I would not sign the contract if it was not clearly defined.

I would suggest if it is not clearly defined then that is in your best interest. I've been on a daily rate for years, sometimes with defined hours per day, sometimes not. My current gig says a professional working week but leaves it at that.

Workwise, I like flexibility. If I choose not to come in until 10.30 then that's fine. On the flip side, I sometimes spend some time in the evenings on work related activity.

The main point is I am not stuck with rigid be at your desk times. I think that works in my favour...

[malvolio]

A professional day is simply defined: "I do work on your behalf in any 24 hour period, I charge you one set sum of money. I retain the option to reduce that charge if I think it justified, but I will not charge you more than that amount for any 24 hour period."

Any other variation is simply an hourly rate reclassified for accounting simplicity. If you define the day as being 8 hours, then all that means is you have to work 8 hours a day minimum or you don't get paid at all, and if you work 10 you don't earn any more. Somehow I suspect this is not in your best interest.

Also, D&C raises its head, which is very bad for IR35. Commercially it's fairly bad as well, since you risk not getting paid for a 39 hour week.

Suggest to the agency they offer either an hour rate with a 40 hour minimum per week or a PWD package. They can't have both.

[TykeMerc]

Like others I would be looking for another gig.

I've worked some very long and strange hours on several contracts, but always been paid for the hours I work (at overtime multiples) or got time off to compensate.

To me a Professional day is roughly 7.5 hours or less if the Client expects their permies to have a 35 hour week, travel time between sites or to unusual sites is also something I expect to be paid for along with unusual travel expenses.

Simply because the place you're working at has an archaic and borderline illegal (Working Time Directive) set of working practices doesn't mean that they're reasonable or fair.

Daily rates aren't a license for the Client to take the pi$$ unless you allow them to do it.

I've worked on daily rates for years and while I do typically put in more hours than are expected I also get payback in one form or another with the Client acting reasonably.

[slackbloke]

The real answer is "by taking advantage of people's good nature".

My making-excuses-for-my-own-weakness-answer is because the permies did those hours (and more) and so expected it of contractors. It was one of those places where you get given a task in a meeting at 6pm to be completed for a 9 a.m. meeting the next day. You were forever being committed to do more and more tasks in short timescales because the permies did it.

Where I am now is going the same way. Some of the (permie) project team are always in before 8:00 and still present at 6:30 every day. I don't know when they arrive - I've never got in that early. The new programme manager (who may be the cause of the change to the contracts) is too pushy on deadlines, does not allow contingency in plans, expects over-delivery in everything. He has started committing people to things they hadn't said they could do and accusing them of failure if they don't then agree with his new made-up deadlines.

So I can see a need to do 10 or 12 hours a day to meet his silly deadlines - which is OK so long as I'm getting paid for it. A "professional day" will see me doing free overtime.

One of the contract project managers who has been here for years has been working to 10pm lately. He's already on a daily rate.

I think I would be looking to get out of a place like that if I was in it. I can perhaps understand permies working late to show commitment but at least they have some to aim for like possibly a payrise or promotion. But as a contractor I am there to do my paid hours and that's it. I'll happily help colleagues(permies and contractors), but avoid over commitment and creating expectation. I hope you get it sorted out.

[Numpty]

I understand your point, but how did they make you do 12 hours a day?

The real answer is "by taking advantage of people's good nature".

My making-excuses-for-my-own-weakness-answer is because the permies did those hours (and more) and so expected it of contractors. It was one of those places where you get given a task in a meeting at 6pm to be completed for a 9 a.m. meeting the next day. You were forever being committed to do more and more tasks in short timescales because the permies did it.

Where I am now is going the same way. Some of the (permie) project team are always in before 8:00 and still present at 6:30 every day. I don't know when they arrive - I've never got in that early. The new programme manager (who may be the cause of the change to the contracts) is too pushy on deadlines, does not allow contingency in plans, expects over-delivery in everything. He has started committing people to things they hadn't said they could do and accusing them of failure if they don't then agree with his new made-up deadlines.

So I can see a need to do 10 or 12 hours a day to meet his silly deadlines - which is OK so long as I'm getting paid for it. A "professional day" will see me doing free overtime.

One of the contract project managers who has been here for years has been working to 10pm lately. He's already on a daily rate.

[slackbloke]

That's how I got screwed in the past.

We had to do 8 hours a day. 7 hours 55 minutes was a half day.

Yet, because it was project work (as it is in this contract) sometimes you did 12 hours a day. That was still one day.

Nett result: unpaid overtime.

Since I'm currently paid hourly, I don't fancy changing the rules giving them free hours in overtime yet being docked money for getting in late the next morning like PreviousClientCo did. Not unless the rate goes up.

I understand your point, but how did they make you do 12 hours a day?

[slackbloke]

The contract said "a professional day". No extra detail.

ClientCo said "that means at least 8 hours per day".

Agency said "it means whatever the client says it means".

Well, surely it doesn't mean anything unless it is defined in the contract. If it is not defined in the contract then it doesn't mean anything from a legal perspective. I would not sign the contract if it was not clearly defined.
The ClientCo simply cannot say it means this or that.

[Numpty]

Current contract is on a day rate. The contract explicitly states that I will decide my own start and finish times, and how many hours I need to provide.

Then again, it also states that I will do as much time as the contract deliverable requires.

I am happy to do long days when required (upgrades, etc.) but I do resent doing 10 hours a day, 5 days a week for 8 hours dosh.

Your contract explicitly stating your own start time & end time + hours per week sounds good. That sounds like it could be interpreted as a flexitime contract which is nearly as good as an hourly rate anyway!

There is the makings of the solution there. It just means that instead of having hourly granularity per week, there is ½ day granularity per week. So a 12 hour Monday means taking Friday afternoon off and still getting 5 days dosh without any argumenents from the permie beancounters.

[Numpty]

"PreviousClientCo defined it as "Do more than 8 hours every day or we dock your money". " ??????! Your contract is with the agency, ClientCo cannot override what your contract says.

The contract said "a professional day". No extra detail.

ClientCo said "that means at least 8 hours per day".

Agency said "it means whatever the client says it means".