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Previously on "State of the Market"

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  • WTFH
    replied
    Originally posted by OzzieExpat View Post
    You seem to have an agenda that doesn’t agree with this. You have also omitted the RAF article. It seems like you would like to close the argument by banning views you don't agree with.
    I omitted the RAF article, because I had information regarding the other one. If I had included the RAF article, you would have replied with "why did you include the RAF article".

    As for banning, it wasn't for his views, but for the content of one of his posts in the professional section of the forum, as was clearly stated in the PM sent.

    Leave a comment:


  • OzzieExpat
    replied
    Originally posted by WTFH View Post

    Funny how that headline has been debunked many times, but I doubt you got that far. A separate organisation, called "Creative Access" was one of the places advertising a role, not the BBC.
    If you do a bit of research, you'll find that "Creative Access" are effectively a recruitment agency.

    You're posting the sort of suff that we normally get from Fraidy, when he's not banned.
    You seem to have an agenda that doesn’t agree with this. You have also omitted the RAF article. It seems like you would like to close the argument by banning views you don't agree with.

    Leave a comment:


  • SueEllen
    replied
    Originally posted by OzzieExpat View Post

    It's everywhere
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...k-66060490.amp
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/b...s-b941600.html

    I could find dozens that are published. The same ethos applies in a lot of companies as well.
    "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression"

    Leave a comment:


  • WTFH
    replied
    Originally posted by OzzieExpat View Post

    It's everywhere...
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/b...s-b941600.html

    I could find dozens that are published. The same ethos applies in a lot of companies as well.
    Funny how that headline has been debunked many times, but I doubt you got that far. A separate organisation, called "Creative Access" was one of the places advertising a role, not the BBC.
    If you do a bit of research, you'll find that "Creative Access" are effectively a recruitment agency.

    You're posting the sort of suff that we normally get from Fraidy, when he's not banned.

    Leave a comment:


  • SussexSeagull
    replied
    Originally posted by OzzieExpat View Post

    It's everywhere
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...k-66060490.amp
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/b...s-b941600.html

    I could find dozens that are published. The same ethos applies in a lot of companies as well.
    I can only speak from my experience of being a 50 year old straight (although never having been quizzed on my sexuality that isn't really relevant) white guy who has never tried to be a fighter pilot or, to quote The Clash, make tea at the BBC and have largely been in the private sector.

    If I have ever faced discrimination in my career it is through not having the right contacts and, recently, being too old. That isn't to say I haven't had fairly major cultural clashes with some of the Indian consultancies I have been forced to work with who exist to take what they can off you then replace them with one of their consultants but that was the same when I worked 'with' largely white Accenture 20 years ago.

    Don't get me wrong, there was a period 10-15 years ago when too many work permits were issued to Indians on the grounds of skills shortages - which were actually skills shortages willing to work on the cheap - who now have the right to remain but I can't help think it is too easy to blame personal failings or lack of success on other people when in fact it is a market shift.

    Leave a comment:


  • OzzieExpat
    replied
    Originally posted by Snooky View Post
    Interesting claim, do you have any non-anecdotal evidence for this?

    My experience differs - I'm a white, middle-aged male and, to my knowledge, have never been discriminated against, nor have I ever worked for a company where I saw such things happen. Perhaps there's positive discrimination in government roles, I wouldn't know as I've only ever worked in the private sector.

    It's equally possible that a person's age, gender and racial background has absolutely nothing to do with their rejection, but that's a harder pill to swallow for the candidate.
    It's everywhere
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...k-66060490.amp
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/b...s-b941600.html

    I could find dozens that are published. The same ethos applies in a lot of companies as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snooky
    replied
    Originally posted by OzzieExpat View Post
    if you are a white male then then you will be discriminated against
    Interesting claim, do you have any non-anecdotal evidence for this?

    My experience differs - I'm a white, middle-aged male and, to my knowledge, have never been discriminated against, nor have I ever worked for a company where I saw such things happen. Perhaps there's positive discrimination in government roles, I wouldn't know as I've only ever worked in the private sector.

    It's equally possible that a person's age, gender and racial background has absolutely nothing to do with their rejection, but that's a harder pill to swallow for the candidate.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheDude
    replied
    My four month extension arrived and turned out to be a three week extension instead.

    My boss spoke about wanting me to take the three month cool off period and re-engage when we discussed renewal. I would rather take three months off over summer/autumn than over Xmas so hopefully re-engagement is still on the cards.

    Leave a comment:


  • oliverson
    replied
    Originally posted by escapeUK View Post

    Perhaps you could talk about having some sort of agreement having so many days a month as like a retainer or maintenance contract. Maybe other companies you worked for would love that too?

    The reverse of the coin of thinking we are too old, is employing useless younger people with no skills and appalling work ethic. Unfortunately it seems businesses will do this until they are bust. There are many idiots employing other idiots. We see it in everything in our society where things just don't work anymore, because the experience and intelligence isn't there. Crowdstrike anyone?......
    I never said I had a good work ethic!!

    Point taken on the retainer or part-time suggestions. I just feel when this is done, it's done and it's time to hang up my keyboard! I've been working since I was fifteen!!

    Leave a comment:


  • SussexSeagull
    replied
    Just had feedback from my interview on Friday and apparently my 'testing experience isn't modern enough'. To be fair I did trip over a technical question (admittedly on something that wasn't on the job description so was blindsided over) but both interviews were probably 30 and under.

    Leave a comment:


  • escapeUK
    replied
    Originally posted by oliverson View Post
    I'll be 57 at the end of this month and the thought occurs to me that the 12 month extension I recently signed, may well be the very last one, unless there's another one after that. WHEN it eventually comes to an end, that's it for me I think. At approaching 58, there is no way on earth that as a developer / devops type guy, I'll be approaching the market for more work. Fortunately the guys I'm currently working with are at the elder end of the spectrum so it's a good fit, but it will end.
    Perhaps you could talk about having some sort of agreement having so many days a month as like a retainer or maintenance contract. Maybe other companies you worked for would love that too?

    The reverse of the coin of thinking we are too old, is employing useless younger people with no skills and appalling work ethic. Unfortunately it seems businesses will do this until they are bust. There are many idiots employing other idiots. We see it in everything in our society where things just don't work anymore, because the experience and intelligence isn't there. Crowdstrike anyone? But even something completely opposite like the purchasers at M&S, seem to think their shoppers are young and sexy and want Victoria Secret underwear, when in actual fact its grannies who want comfie. And the grannies have lots of spend and the young are broke! Knowing your customer, long gone with the experienced staff.

    Leave a comment:


  • SussexSeagull
    replied
    I am a tester so trends tend to be a little bit slower to come and go but I suspect 50 my days in start ups might have come and go (not that I have seen any adverts for them of late now I think of it). That said I tend to contract with small to medium sized companies who buy into my 25 years experience and want someone who has been there and done that to help them through a busy period.

    All of this said I started on green screen terminals and have worked at a company who had one of the few Google Glasses in Europe. Have gone from Waterfall (which didn't really have a name, it was just the way things were done) through to various flavours of Agile via a RAD cup-de-sac. Seen lots of development and test tools come and go.

    Has software development actually become anymore streamlined or quicker in that time? Frankly, no. Every few years we seem to switch between dedicated project teams and having dedicated development. test etc. teams and it fundamentally doesn't make any difference to the end result.

    Ride the wave as long as you can.

    Leave a comment:


  • PCTNN
    replied
    Originally posted by dsc View Post

    I'd even go as far as saying around 40 is a good time to find a comfortable position in a big corp and cruise till retirement.
    Bingo! Good age for contracting is 35-45, when you're still young enough to get interviews and yet experienced enough to make people think you're worth your day rate.

    10 years of fruitful contracting, making a big dent in the mortgage balance, and then you just find a nice cushy senior/management permie job for a company with good benefits and ride it to retirement. Zero stress, zero f3cks.

    Leave a comment:


  • oliverson
    replied
    I'll be 57 at the end of this month and the thought occurs to me that the 12 month extension I recently signed, may well be the very last one, unless there's another one after that. WHEN it eventually comes to an end, that's it for me I think. At approaching 58, there is no way on earth that as a developer / devops type guy, I'll be approaching the market for more work. Fortunately the guys I'm currently working with are at the elder end of the spectrum so it's a good fit, but it will end.

    I've not had an interview now for over 3 years (fortunately) and that was with these guys. My recollections of prior to that were Zoom interviews with young unprofessional people, casually dressed. I didn't hold a great opinion of them and I'm sure they're looking at me thinking they didn't want to work with somebody more than old enough to be their dad.

    Whilst not a the same pay level, I can somehow relate to how professional footballers might feel when they realise their number is up and are forced to do something else. Though they would be a lot younger than 57. I guess just as we have done in our contracting careers, 're-inventing' ourselves, reskilling, etc., we must also do the same when our time as contractors is up.
    Last edited by oliverson; Yesterday, 09:59.

    Leave a comment:


  • sspt27
    replied
    Originally posted by escapeUK View Post
    One thing to consider. It might be less the state of the market, and more you (we) are now too old. One of my ex bosses who has remained a friend has found it incredibly hard to find a job despite being very intelligent, and having a great CV packed with experience.

    I think a lot of us are around the 50ish mark, and I think 20 something HR are often thinking that's far too old. Hence why we see a perfect job for us, a 100% fit, apply for it and don't even get a reply.

    I saw someone on YouTube, a contractor accountant, making this exact point the other day:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9sNqm81jBg
    It is something to consider. Or rather, something I've considered, constantly, late at night for the last 6 months. The trouble with "considering it" is that: there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. I can't make myself 35 again - except, I guess, in the physical fitness sense: I wouldn't go so far as to say "35", but I'm probably fitter than many 40yos.

    "Lie" on the CV, to imply that I might not be the age I am? I've already removed 15 years of contracts, and removed the dates from my qualifications. Trouble is, I can't then say what is true: that I have 25 years' experience.

    The overall impression I get, from exposing myself to the toxic sludge of job ads for the past 6 months, is that quite possibly experience is a disadvantage. Look at all those ads demanding knowledge of a zillion different technologies, in unrelated areas. It's not SQL + Oracle + [some ERP] + NoSQL + AWS, which would make sense. It's not Webdev + Java + Angular + .NET, which would also make sense. It's all of them, plus Python and a zillion TLAs I've never heard of. Oh, and deep knowledge of a specific industry, and residence in [somewhere I don't live and can't move to], and some very specific SC/DV clearance already. No-one, surely, is actually experienced in all of those.

    Trouble is, over-exposure to this sludge is actually going a fair way to turning me into exactly the grumpy old, neophobic 50-something stereotpye HR may be imagining - a person I know I'm not really. The IT world, this old-man-shouting-at-clouds grumbles, has gone insane. He's not interested in learning any of this alphabet-soup new stuff, because no-one will even give him a chance to. Jog on, Grandpa!

    I don't see a solution. I'm studying a TEFL teacher course, and applying for jobs as a supermarket van driver.

    (EDIT: I would love to succeed in "doing what your username says"...)
    Last edited by sspt27; Yesterday, 09:53.

    Leave a comment:

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