Reply to: EU plans to ground British flights to the EU for no deal

[BlasterBates]

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info...y-qanda_en.pdf

Sections 8 and 9 on pages 4 and 5.

The EU are unilaterally permitting 3rd and 4th freedom flights, i.e. flights between the EU and UK, and between the UK and EU - provided we reciprocate. That is the basic service.

The UK's hand here is enforcing foreign ownership rules on airlines operating from the UK to UK and UK to non-EU destinations, which will provide fun and games to RyanAir, Wizzair, Norwegian and British Airways - a UK subsidiary of a foreign company wouldn't be enough.

Again you are simply interpreting it. The text states:

Basic connectivity
refers to the level and volume of air transport services that will suffice to cover
the basic needs of the Member States' economies and mitigate to some extent
the impact of withdrawal, without however guaranteeing the continuation of all
existing air transport services under the same terms as they are supplied
today.

They are not guaranteeing the continuation of ALL air transport services, not ALL EU flights that don't have the UK as a destination

In the first paragraph they have already stated that UK airlines will not be able to fly within the EU. The basic connectivity refers only to flights to and from the UK and will not be guaranteed for all flights.

[chopper]

Of course they will decide at their own discretion but the text they've published makes it clear that they are not simply allowing all flights to the EU only "certain flights".

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info...y-qanda_en.pdf

Sections 8 and 9 on pages 4 and 5.

The EU are unilaterally permitting 3rd and 4th freedom flights, i.e. flights between the EU and UK, and between the UK and EU - provided we reciprocate. That is the basic service.

The UK's hand here is enforcing foreign ownership rules on airlines operating from the UK to UK and UK to non-EU destinations, which will provide fun and games to RyanAir, Wizzair, Norwegian and British Airways - a UK subsidiary of a foreign company wouldn't be enough.

Will there still be plane connections between the UK and the EU in case of no
deal? What exactly is the EU proposing to ensure this? What will happen if the
UK does not reciprocate the measures taken by the EU?
In case of no deal, the Commission is proposing that "point-to-point" flight
connections, i.e. connections from the territory of the United Kingdom to the
territory of the EU27, are temporarily allowed on the basis of a unilateral
measure. This measure will enter into force in case of no deal, if the United
Kingdom reciprocates, and last until 30 March 2020. This is to avoid a full
interruption of traffic between the EU and the United Kingdom.
To ensure reciprocity, the proposal would enable the Commission to adopt
appropriate measures, such as adjusting the allowable capacity available to UK
air carriers, or requiring Member States to adapt, refuse, suspend or revoke
the operating authorisations of UK air carriers, if the Commission were to
determine that rights granted by the UK to EU air carriers are not equivalent to
those granted to UK air carriers.

Why is the Commission limiting its contingency proposal to only ensuring basic
connectivity between the EU and the UK (so called 3rd and 4th freedoms)?
A no-deal scenario will cause significant disruption. As mentioned in the
Communication of 19 December 2018, contingency measures cannot replicate
the benefits of membership of the Union, nor the terms of any transition
period, as provided for in the draft Withdrawal Agreement. Basic connectivity
refers to the level and volume of air transport services that will suffice to cover
the basic needs of the Member States' economies and mitigate to some extent
the impact of withdrawal, without however guaranteeing the continuation of all
existing air transport services under the same terms as they are supplied
today.

[NotAllThere]

Not a problem, if there are not enough flights, you can simply queue up at Dover.

Or hail a passing unicorn.

Err, EU can prevent any aircraft from flying into EU airspace!

Yeah? Them and whose army?

Project Fear.

More accurately brinkmanship by both EU and UK to stoke fear into feeble minds so that May's deal will be accepted,

So it's Project Fear when:
1. Remainers explain to Brexiters why leaving the EU will, overall, be a bad thing and may even cause severe disruption and economic woes
2. Brexiters and Remainers explain to May supporters that her deal will leave us with all the duties of being an EU member, without any benefits
3. Brexiters explain to Remainers that the EU is about to collapse, and we need to get out before it does
4. May supporters use 1 and 3 to garner support for there ideas.

Did I miss any?

[BlasterBates]

Firstly, that’s from October so predates today’s interim announcement.

Secondly, read the actual text from the EU line by line. It starts off by saying that leaving without a Withdrawal Agreement would cause interruption, and then goes on to say that interim measures would be put into place to counter that interruption. Nowhere in the text does it say disruption would continue (at least, for the next 9 months)

It all hangs on reciprocity, so it is now up to the U.K. to confirm that similar arrangements will be put into place here.

Apart from that, it’s really not that big of a deal.

The text says "certain flights" and no that doesn't mean just no internal flights, otherwise it would have said that.

Brexit: EU reveals no-deal plans - BBC News

Flights from the UK into and overflying the EU to be allowed for 12 months to ensure "basic connectivity"

Basic connectivity isn't business as usual, particularly in light of their comment

These measures will not - and cannot - mitigate the overall impact of a 'no-deal' scenario,

Of course they will decide at their own discretion but the text they've published makes it clear that they are not simply allowing all flights to the EU only "certain flights".

[meridian]

EU plans to ground British flights to the EU for no deal

Jean-Claude Juncker warns of disruption to flights in the event of a no deal Brexit

Firstly, that’s from October so predates today’s interim announcement.

Secondly, read the actual text from the EU line by line. It starts off by saying that leaving without a Withdrawal Agreement would cause interruption, and then goes on to say that interim measures would be put into place to counter that interruption. Nowhere in the text does it say disruption would continue (at least, for the next 9 months)

It all hangs on reciprocity, so it is now up to the U.K. to confirm that similar arrangements will be put into place here.

Apart from that, it’s really not that big of a deal.

[darmstadt]

Shauny is sharpening his potato peeler this very minute.

Is that a euphemism for...oh, maybe that emoticon he likes to use so often

[Old Greg]

Looks like it's going to be a dirty war if 'no deal' wins and brexit does mean brexit, the EU won't go away quietly. Good job no EU Army, yet.

Shauny is sharpening his potato peeler this very minute.

[Hobosapien]

I think the game plan is clear, the EU will allow most flights but not enough to prevent noticeable disruption and then propose that EU airlines step into the empty slots.

Looks like it's going to be a dirty war if 'no deal' wins and brexit does mean brexit, the EU won't go away quietly. Good job no EU Army, yet.

[Hobosapien]

Jean-Claude Juncker warns of disruption to flights in the event of a no deal Brexit

Project Fear.

More accurately brinkmanship by both EU and UK to stoke fear into feeble minds so that May's deal will be accepted, now it's May's deal or 'no deal' that is getting the limelight.

See also UK papers saying army will be mobilised. To do what exactly? It won't be military action, more likely akin to when they bail out the Firebrigade on strike, so to assist with civil duties that may be stretched due to all the government funding cuts.

[BlasterBates]

I think the game plan is clear, the EU will allow most flights but not enough to prevent noticeable disruption and then propose that EU airlines step into the empty slots.

[BlasterBates]

Who is warning of disruption?

Jean-Claude Juncker warns of disruption to flights in the event of a no deal Brexit

[Zigenare]

The clarification is:

"These measures will only ensure basic connectivity and in no means replicate the significant advantages of membership of the Single European Sky."

The text you quote says "certain air services"

Sure you may be right, but why are they warning of disruption, when it wouldn't affect more than a handful of internal EU flights.

Who is warning of disruption?

[BlasterBates]

Rather than quoting from a misinformed journalist at the Express, it’s usually better to read the actual notices.

The clarification is:

"These measures will only ensure basic connectivity and in no means replicate the significant advantages of membership of the Single European Sky."

The text you quote says "certain air services"

Sure you may be right, but why are they warning of disruption, when it wouldn't affect more than a handful of internal EU flights.

[chopper]

“Cannot prevent” might have been a bit strong. They’ve granted rights to other members to fly over. I can’t be bothered looking to see if the U.K. is a member in its own right, which may change the picture.

Freedoms of the air - Wikipedia

Yes, the UK is a fully paid up member of ICAO in its own right.

(When did we vote to join ICAO and have to follow their rules? When did we vote for the Head of ICAO?)

[meridian]

Err, EU can prevent any aircraft from flying into EU airspace!

“Cannot prevent” might have been a bit strong. They’ve granted rights to other members to fly over. I can’t be bothered looking to see if the U.K. is a member in its own right, which may change the picture.

Freedoms of the air - Wikipedia

The first freedom is the right to fly over a foreign country without landing.[6]:31 It grants the privilege to fly over the territory of a treaty country without landing. Member states of the International Air Services Transit Agreement grant this freedom (as well as the second freedom) to other member states,[7] subject to the transiting aircraft using designated air routes.