Reply to: Sanzar?

[Waldorf]

Michael may be right, the Sanzar website seems to have disappeared!

Mind you, they won't be the first to have been investigated by HMRC.

People who use these schemes will never learn.

[northernladuk]

??

Well if you read the post above you and spot that the user in question opened them all, the answer should come to you!

[kaiser78]

What's With All These Resurrected Sanzar Posts ?

??

[Michael J Perry FCA]

HMRC looking at Sanzar, Cherrylon and others

Mod Note: No advertising.

Banned for 1 day.

[ASB]

I am not sure if this a novice question ... lets say these loan schemes do fall foul of the Goverment how far back can they go is it 6 years from the date they start investigating ? or as far as they want ?

Also how long do people keep their records typically ?

It depends. From general legislation it's 6 years. OR 21 in the effect of deliberate concealment (whether they would argue that on a loan scheme who knows).

Further if the scheme falls foul of the disclosure regulations you can expect to go back to 2004 (based on pre budget statement). They are also massive fines for users and promoters it wasn't properly registered.

There is also BN66 to consider, this is related to "treaty abuse". Whether or not this is relevant to any scheme you use/consider I wouldn't know. In this case they are trying to go back to 1987.

There they can always claim discover to reopen earlier years, provide it's in the normal enquiry window. Or they can claim it was inadequately disclosed and use the disclosure the rules anyway.

Really, in effect, HMRC have the power to go back pretty much as far as they want, it's up to you to prove that in your specific circumstances there is legal reasons why they can't.

You might perhaps want to review the BN66 threads to see what can potentially happen (though this is far from over)

[Contract10176]

How far back ?

I am not sure if this a novice question ... lets say these loan schemes do fall foul of the Goverment how far back can they go is it 6 years from the date they start investigating ? or as far as they want ?

Also how long do people keep their records typically ?

[Andy74]

Hi peterc2609, I'm in a similar situation to the one you describe in this thread. Would be interested to know what route you went down in the end.

Hi,

I'm in the same situation to both peterc2609 and aphex, just wondering what you both did and what the outcome was

[aphex]

Which Route?

Hi peterc2609, I'm in a similar situation to the one you describe in this thread. Would be interested to know what route you went down in the end.

[Pacciae]

Baur & Cottrell do contract reviews to tell you if your contract (and working arrangements) are IR35 or not.
http://www.bauerandcottrell.co.uk/

The PCG is an organisation run by contractors for contractors see:
www.pcg.org.uk

The best way to avoid IR35 is to have one of the following:
a) The client should not have "direction and control" over you (i.e. you should decide how and when the work is done)
b) You should not have to perform the services personally (i.e. a substitution clause)
c) There should only be "an irriducable minimum mutuality of obligation" i.e. there is no obligation on the client to provide work, or any obligation on you to do it. (this is not as complicated as it sounds. if say you were a mainframe programmer and the mainframe was down for a day, the permanent staff would probably count paperclips, and still get paid. Would you go home and not get paid)

Regarding your other question about the Sanzar loan scheme being safer, those magic beans are still for sale. 100% guaranteed.

Contact Qdos about your contract they are often on these boards

[BrilloPad]

Hi

I've been in my current contract for 3 years and 2 months . . . usually 3 month renewals. I'm Ltd company and a bit worried about IR35.

I suppose the easiest thing would be to get a job somewhere else, but its really quiet at the moment!

So I was thinking of going to Umbrella company - mainly as I hate doing accounts etc.

Someone has recommended Sanzar in the IOM to me....

I've spoke to them and it sounds quite good, but then I come on here and see threads about Montpelier etc...

Is it safe to go with Sanzar?

I was with montpelier from April 2006 until October 2008 : up to March 2008 via the double taxation and after that a loan scheme.

Some under investigation for bn66 have been in since 2001 : with no resolution due for years this could be a 10/15 year fight!!

I left montp as I did not like the loan scheme : but I am thinking of paying the tax just to get the loan written off. I am a bit worried that I might be chased for the ENTIRE loan amount!

If you like risk (my appetite has decreased) then do it : but please put tax "saved" your money in a CTD. If yu dont know what a CTD is then read the BN66 thread post #1.

[Archangel]

Contract reviewed? By whom, I've been on the same one since I started all this - I do remember the accountant making some changes to it for IR35 though.

PCG? What is this?

Working arrangements? At the moment I am office based with a few days now and again off to different sites.

Can someone explain to me in laymans terms, the best and safest way to avoid IR35 whilst contracting for the one company... and also to earn the most money whilst doing it!!

Baur & Cottrell do contract reviews to tell you if your contract (and working arrangements) are IR35 or not.
http://www.bauerandcottrell.co.uk/

The PCG is an organisation run by contractors for contractors see:
www.pcg.org.uk

The best way to avoid IR35 is to have one of the following:
a) The client should not have "direction and control" over you (i.e. you should decide how and when the work is done)
b) You should not have to perform the services personally (i.e. a substitution clause)
c) There should only be "an irriducable minimum mutuality of obligation" i.e. there is no obligation on the client to provide work, or any obligation on you to do it. (this is not as complicated as it sounds. if say you were a mainframe programmer and the mainframe was down for a day, the permanent staff would probably count paperclips, and still get paid. Would you go home and not get paid)

Regarding your other question about the Sanzar loan scheme being safer, those magic beans are still for sale. 100% guaranteed.

[PhilAtBFCA]

Offshore, Limited & Umbrella

Hi Peter,

If you are looking at offshore schemes and Sanzar then take a good read of the forum threads and see how much potential hassle you can have from HMRC investigations and ask yourself if its really worth it. It seems to me that the comments by most people would suggest that the price of an unbelievable return on your contract rate is high.

Ask yourself as well who still earns fees from providing the service, whether it works for you or not.

IMHO If you are going to be a long term contractor think about running a real UK business that is compliant and easy for you to manage, take a good look at the PCG and get a good advisor that supports your business. If you just doing this before going perm somewhere think about a UK based PAYE Umbrella, but make sure it is highly recomended and big enough to survive the risks in this business climate.

Phil

[ASB]

Loans are a relatively new planning arrangement that HMRC have not publicly attacked at this time which is why there isn't much information on them.

I think they've had quite a go at loans in general, eg employee loans, loans in a depreciating currency, I think where they might not be quite so well attacked is family based loans. If memory servers correctly montpelier won a case on this last year (though the employer was not granted a CT deduction on the payments that funded the family loans - this is currently going through appear).

So, whilst there may be effective loan based schemes I would expect them to get attacked, and I would also expect the attack to be retrospective to the start of the the disclosure regime. Of course whether that happens is a different thing.

[peterc2609]

Depends if you want to sleep soundly.

have you had your contract reviewed?
have you joined the PCG?
What are your working arrangements?
You say you've read the Montpelier etc threads, please reread them and answer your own question.

If you do decide to go with Sanzar, i have some magic beans you may be interested in.

I'm really new to this side of things... I just originally set up my LTD and started to work and get paid, and accountant deals with things.

I'm just wary of IR35.

Contract reviewed? By whom, I've been on the same one since I started all this - I do remember the accountant making some changes to it for IR35 though.

PCG? What is this?

Working arrangements? At the moment I am office based with a few days now and again off to different sites.

I don't work for Sanzar - just a colleague has decided to sign up with them, and I was thinking of going with an umbrella, and this one sounded good (to start off with!)

Yes I have work but I thought if I changed to an umbrella I'd be safe from IR35?!? Its only cos I've been here so long!

So if Sanzar go to a loan scheme does that mean it's safer!?!

All these comments are helpful, but a bit over my head.

Can someone explain to me in laymans terms, the best and safest way to avoid IR35 whilst contracting for the one company... and also to earn the most money whilst doing it!!

[Emigre]

Lets be clear here. The fight over BN66 is about the retrospective element. The prospective elements are accepted and it closes down that particular tax planning opportunity with effect from 12 March 2008.

Loans are a relatively new planning arrangement that HMRC have not publicly attacked at this time which is why there isn't much information on them.

If you are looking at a solution beyond umbrellas/PAYE/PSC etc do some research into the companies providing the solution. Many of the companies out there purporting to provide a contractor solution offer that as their only piece of tax planning. It is very likely that they are leveraging off someone else's intellectual property, do not actually have Counsel opinion addressed to them, and are unlikely (being one-trick ponies) to be around when HMRC hits the fan. Find a company who has a true international presence where they are promoting a wide variety of planning options and services.