Reply to: Possible to claim new style JSA?

[Snooky]

Well, this is our glorious Labour government who are obsessed with making it rain on anyone that isn't grafting their socks off, it's really them you should be questioning. Why are they offering non means tested JSA?

Quite possibly because they've done the maths and decided it's cheaper and more efficient to support those who genuinely need it and are actively trying to find work, and accept that there will be some unavoidable losses to scroungers, than it is to run the whole costly and time consuming rigmarole for every single applicant. Contrary to what the Daily Mail et al might want us to be believe, most people don't want to be scraping by on the bare minimum while the rest of society looks down on them, they want to be doing their bit and prospering.

That's just my guess, though.

[courtg9000]

Problem is he's more likely to get it incorrectly as the 'droid' cannot handle complexity. He will, fraudulently, claim he's not working, tick the boxes the droid wants to hear and the droid will rubber stamp it. He won't furnish them with the true situation so they won't need to deal with the complexity.

Yeah the 'droid' can't handle complexity. But they do have very overworked people who can, not enough people, but they do seem to get round to everyone! The thing is they do find out about this sort of shizzle eventually. When they do they tend to come down hard as well. You do not get on the bad side of anything to do with the DWP. Its actually worse than winding up HMRC!
Whats the forum standard for forum posters who end up in jail? Do we laugh? Lecture them on not bending over to pick up the soap?

[northernladuk]

I agree that that's completely nuts, but if it's the letter of the law then I'm more than happy to claw back some of the ridiculous tax they take off me while I'm out of work.

To be fair I can't argue with that. If all said and done you've jumped through every hoop, been totally honest, they've understood it and they still pay it then you've got a right to do it and my ire should (as maybe it should have all along) be aimed at the system that lets situations like this work.

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

Does it balls. Millions of businesses don't have income for periods of times. Next time I walk past the local hairdressers and cafe and they've no customers in I'll pop in and advise they claim JSA.

Maybe you should? I'm not even joking either. I have friends that literally run hairdressers, and when the business is bad they don't take any money out.

Also it's not about business income. It's about you working. Again, loads of businesses still operate even though they've no income at the moment. And as I've said loads of times and you've skirted it, you are working when are carring out marketing/sales to get a new gig.

I said that there's no requirement to be not working. It appears to be measured based on your income and the number of hours you work.

Put it this way. If you are running a business, claim you are not working and then go apply for some jobs/browse linkedin/go for interviews, fill in onboarding before your gig they are are committing fraud plain and simple. You ARE working for your business but claiming you are not working. Benefit fraud right there.

What if I say "I am running a business", state that the business doesn't have any income at present, I am not drawing a salary from it, and that I spend 5 hours per week searching linkedin to secure employment?

Incorrect. You pay yourself minimal salary because it's more efficient to pay yourself in salary.

You pay yourself a minimal salary as you need to exceed the threshold for national insurance. You can also offset it against your corporation tax, partially. Looking at it, the latter probably negates all of the benefits of the JSA, so it might be a no-go simply from this.

Fair argument but what is your stance on benefit fraud?

My stance is that you're coming in swinging with some high and mighty opinions. I think benefit fraud is bad. I am asking if I meet the criteria for new style JSA. The answer is either yes, or no, not some sanctimonious rant.

I'm sure people would be interested in the result, so would I, even to know which part doesn't meet eligibility.

I reckon ultimately you feel that it shouldn't be possible. Well, this is our glorious Labour government who are obsessed with making it rain on anyone that isn't grafting their socks off, it's really them you should be questioning. Why are they offering non means tested JSA? I could have £5mil in the bank and I could be paying myself a £200k/dividend every month and as far as I can see I'd be eligible for JSA because their guidance seems to say that it doesn't matter.

I agree that that's completely nuts, but if it's the letter of the law then I'm more than happy to claw back some of the ridiculous tax they take off me while I'm out of work.

[WTFH]

Millions of businesses don't have income for periods of times.

Yes, many businesses have no income between when one invoice is paid and when the next one is paid.

[northernladuk]

One thing is being overlooked here.
How are you proposing to get this past a DWP "droid"?

Problem is he's more likely to get it incorrectly as the 'droid' cannot handle complexity. He will, fraudulently, claim he's not working, tick the boxes the droid wants to hear and the droid will rubber stamp it. He won't furnish them with the true situation so they won't need to deal with the complexity.

[northernladuk]

It seems fairly ordinary to stop paying yourself when your business has no income.

Does it balls. Millions of businesses don't have income for periods of times. Next time I walk past the local hairdressers and cafe and they've no customers in I'll pop in and advise they claim JSA.

Also it's not about business income. It's about you working. Again, loads of businesses still operate even though they've no income at the moment. And as I've said loads of times and you've skirted it, you are working when are carring out marketing/sales to get a new gig.

Put it this way. If you are running a business, claim you are not working and then go apply for some jobs/browse linkedin/go for interviews, fill in onboarding before your gig they are are committing fraud plain and simple. You ARE working for your business but claiming you are not working. Benefit fraud right there.

JSA is based on if you are working or not, I am not working. You can't claim it if you are working, so if you're in a contract, then you would not be eligible.

See above. You are working, you just have no income.

AFAIK the only reason for paying yourself a minimal salary is for NI contributions, which are covered under JSA.

Incorrect. You pay yourself minimal salary because it's more efficient to pay yourself in salary. You can chose to set your rate to a level that meets NI Contributions for pensions and the like but that's your choice. You don't have to pay yourself at all. Low salary/ High dividence is for efficiency, not to claim benefits.

I see nothing morally wrong about using options the government provides if eligible.

Fair argument but what is your stance on benefit fraud?

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

Merely going to explain my situation and see if I am eligible.

If not, then no harm done. But according to the wording they've published, it does appear that I would be eligible.

It is bonkers, but that's what removing means testing does. I mean it's not like any of us even pay NI is it, and the government happily credits it every year.

[courtg9000]

One thing is being overlooked here.
How are you proposing to get this past a DWP "droid"?

[WTFH]

It seems fairly ordinary to stop paying yourself when your business has no income.

JSA is based on if you are working or not, I am not working. You can't claim it if you are working, so if you're in a contract, then you would not be eligible.

AFAIK the only reason for paying yourself a minimal salary is for NI contributions, which are covered under JSA.

I see nothing morally wrong about using options the government provides if eligible.

Yes the amount of tax people save doing this is incredible, vs the absolute minimal relief that claiming JSA offers (which is around £2000). The fact you can split your dividends as well, I had to take a large dividend one year into the 40% bracket cos I needed some money unexpectedly, saddens me that my fellow contractor could have taken it at the lower rate.

Who are currently the directors of your Ltd?

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

Using a bit of common and reading between the lines your income is the salary you pay yourself. Pausing it to claim no income should be classed as fraud. That's disgraceful and morally repugnant. You are lowering yourself to Pyscho Candy levels.

Just because you have the ability to dick around with your salary it doesn't mean you pause it and claim JSA. I mean, why not go the whole hog and not to pay yourself for 11 months of the year, claim JSA and then on the 12th month decide you are worth 11k and pay yourself that? Why stop at only claiming JSA while you aren't in a contract. Your contract has absolutely sod all to do with your pay so why not?

It seems fairly ordinary to stop paying yourself when your business has no income.

JSA is based on if you are working or not, I am not working. You can't claim it if you are working, so if you're in a contract, then you would not be eligible.

AFAIK the only reason for paying yourself a minimal salary is for NI contributions, which are covered under JSA.

I see nothing morally wrong about using options the government provides if eligible.

"My spouse does the filing for my limited company, so I pay them £12k/year", i.e. some people might question how much effort is actually involved in that filing to justify the salary.

Yes the amount of tax people save doing this is incredible, vs the absolute minimal relief that claiming JSA offers (which is around £2000). The fact you can split your dividends as well, I had to take a large dividend one year into the 40% bracket cos I needed some money unexpectedly, saddens me that my fellow contractor could have taken it at the lower rate.

[hobnob]

You are working. You are looking for, applying for and interviewing for contracts. That is standard work for any business. Even pausing your payments is work carried out for your business. You are mixing up a contract vs working for your limited.

I agree that being a company director is still working. Personally, I haven't claimed JSA or UC, even when I've been on the bench for several months between contracts.

However, this reminds me of previous discussions about "My spouse does the filing for my limited company, so I pay them £12k/year", i.e. some people might question how much effort is actually involved in that filing to justify the salary.

In this case, I think it's a question of part-time work vs full-time work, rather than out of work vs working. if someone spends 2 hours/day (10 hours/week) searching through the job boards for new contracts and updating FreeAgent etc., I'd view that the same as a part-time job, so I think they are potentially eligible for JSA.

Morally, my main concern is pausing the salary. If someone set up a limited company for a new contract, but then the contract fell through (i.e. the company has zero funds), it would feel a bit unfair to say "You're no longer eligible for JSA because you're a company director". On the other hand, if the company has loads of money but chooses not to pay a salary, that's a bit iffy.

[northernladuk]

My understanding is that you would have to be assessed whether you're gainfully self employed under benefit rules so you'd have to go through the pain and admin of having an interview with a work coach to determine your status. Generally, you wouldn't be able to claim JSA if you're a director as you'd be considered to be in gainful self-employment but you could be eligible for UC.

If you read HMRC's guidance, it says you "can" apply but to be eligible and in receipt of JSA, you'd have to jump through hoops. Good luck if you're going for it and would love an update if you brave it.

Brave isn't the word I'd use.

[Craig@Clarity]

My understanding is that you would have to be assessed whether you're gainfully self employed under benefit rules so you'd have to go through the pain and admin of having an interview with a work coach to determine your status. Generally, you wouldn't be able to claim JSA if you're a director as you'd be considered to be in gainful self-employment but you could be eligible for UC.

If you read HMRC's guidance, it says you "can" apply but to be eligible and in receipt of JSA, you'd have to jump through hoops. Good luck if you're going for it and would love an update if you brave it.

[northernladuk]

You don't have to be out of work to claim JSA, you just have to be working less than 16 hours, and your income (which for me is zero) would reduce any payments.

You are working. You are looking for, applying for and interviewing for contracts. That is standard work for any business. Even pausing your payments is work carried out for your business. You are mixing up a contract vs working for your limited.

I thought contractors would have got past this level of thinking by now.