Reply to: 'anti-SDC’ kit

[Qdos Contractor]

Hi,

I see mention of this in one page regarding SDC. Is this 'kit' a real thing that someone has made up to help us, or is it a term for something that we should compile and store out of our own volition?

John.

Hi John,

Just to clarify what Andy means by an anti-SDC kit in the article - he is just referring to evidence, not a product. What he means is that it would be good practice to keep evidence specific to SDC in your IR35 dossier, as it is "on the cards as a way to reform IR35".

Hope that clears it up!

- Gemma

[LondonManc]

Perhaps a programmer that doesn't understand === either.

That's a section underline in Notepad when I'm documenting shizzle. Made no sense to me either

[radish2008]

He's a programmer; deals in binary more easily. Take the stick out of your backside today you grumpy sod.

Perhaps a programmer that doesn't understand === either.

[northernladuk]

He's a programmer; deals in binary more easily. Take the stick out of your backside today you grumpy sod.

I'm only grumpy on days that end with a 'Y'.

But I do think I make a very good point. We've seen more than enough people saying 'Can I do this and I'll be outside IR35' so as soon as those that don't understand or care about IR35 will jump on this 'kit' and think they've got their silver bullet.

[LondonManc]

Ok, good to keep in mind. I suppose it would be useful to deliberately come up with such things too, like insist on paying for yourself in some of the ways you mention, and then record them? Or should it be a matter of policy on the client's side (as well as your side), and you're just keeping a record of evidence of it actually being enforced/etc?

Thanks.

I went on a ten-pin bowling night, but I'd imagine that simply keeping the invite email would be sufficient. Again, having to park in a different car park would be a good pointer - anything that shows that you're not being treated the same. Even your contract and especially your working practices.

I think it speaks volumes that the OP has jumped straight for the 'Kit' option as I am sure a raft of other people will do. I imagine we are going to get a lot more 'Where can I buy it and will I be safe if I do?' type questions with little or no regard to the rest of the content of the article. Tickbox permatractin at its finest.

He's a programmer; deals in binary more easily. Take the stick out of your backside today you grumpy sod.

[Lance]

bottom line, your legal counsel is going to need to evidence your position if you're taken to tribunal, so you'd better collect some evidence.

FTFY

[jamesbrown]

Hrm. It seems to me to be a difficult thing to sort out. I mean, the end client almost always insists on 'you' working at their site and insists on 'your' hours. Working methods is also dictated, more often than not - well, in many ways anyway.

Are we supposed to argue these points with the end client? It sounds like a source of contention to me, perhaps resulting in them choosing to engage someone else who is more willing to ignore these sorts of issues.

I suppose it depends how you approach it - I mean it is to the benefit of both parties (&agency too) to avoid falling foul of IR35, so I suppose if that were pointed out then the end client might be more willing to accommodate any methods/etc you choose that don't somehow coincide with theirs.
Hrm, perhaps it might be that your methods would usually be the ones they already use, but that doesn't allow you to show anything in terms of SDC. Are we supposed to come up with various things where we want do something differently, and agree that with the client?

John.

Well then you may be subject to D&C, but whether it's the sufficient degree of D&C that binds you "hand and foot", according to case law, is another matter. That said, lack of D&C is pretty important. Working hours and location may be dictated for reasons that have no bearing on employment status (e.g. H&S, security). However, if the client is dictating working methods, that's not good. You have deliverables. You're supposed to be an expert, so you should be dictating the working methods, and the client should be focused on the deliverables meeting the specs, not how they are delivered. Anyway, IR35 isn't only about D&C, and this is going off topic....bottom line, you're going to need to evidence your position if you're taken to tribunal, so you'd better collect some evidence.

[Lance]

the end client almost always insists on 'you' working at their site and insists on 'your' hours.

Not always. More importantly you need to make sure that they don't dictate rather that you work where the work needs to be done whether that be on their site or not. But YOU decide and control where/when.

Working methods is also dictated, more often than not - well, in many ways anyway.

In that case you are really an employee.
When I'm contracted to a client I'm contracted because I bring expertise. If they don't want to use my expertise I don't hang around very long.

[northernladuk]

I think it speaks volumes that the OP has jumped straight for the 'Kit' option as I am sure a raft of other people will do. I imagine we are going to get a lot more 'Where can I buy it and will I be safe if I do?' type questions with little or no regard to the rest of the content of the article. Tickbox permatractin at its finest.

[dwater]

If you send me £50 in cash, I'll get the kit out to you by return

I'm a programmer. 'you send me £50 in cash' === false...

Having said that, £50 isn't too bad a price to pay if it is effective Trouble is, the 'rules' are all a bit ambiguous, so it seems, and perhaps it's not really possible to come up with such a thing.

I did almost* enter into a contract with an agent that insisted on performing audits of the contractor working at the clients' site, and I guess it's with this sort of thing in mind. It sounds like a good idea.

/John

* promise of verbal offer pending 'rubber stamp' from partner vapourised.

[dwater]

The kit is just a name for a collection of evidence that the contract is not inside IR35. It could contain things mentioned in the link but also things that show that you're treated differently to permies - a separate contractor car park (as at Sky and other places), having to pay for staff nights out (I've had emails where contingent works (consultants and contractors) had to pay for ten pin bowling while permies got it free for example. Print them off and file them at home.

Ok, good to keep in mind. I suppose it would be useful to deliberately come up with such things too, like insist on paying for yourself in some of the ways you mention, and then record them? Or should it be a matter of policy on the client's side (as well as your side), and you're just keeping a record of evidence of it actually being enforced/etc?

Thanks.

[dwater]

Odd terminology. It's almost as though they're in the business of selling IR35 products . Anyway, no, there's no "kit", simply good practice, which is to evidence your status during the contract if it's outside IR35. One element of that is D&C, so you should record concrete evidence of any lack of D&C, such as the ability to set your own hours, location and, crucially, your own working methods to meet the agreed deliverables.

Hrm. It seems to me to be a difficult thing to sort out. I mean, the end client almost always insists on 'you' working at their site and insists on 'your' hours. Working methods is also dictated, more often than not - well, in many ways anyway.

Are we supposed to argue these points with the end client? It sounds like a source of contention to me, perhaps resulting in them choosing to engage someone else who is more willing to ignore these sorts of issues.

I suppose it depends how you approach it - I mean it is to the benefit of both parties (&agency too) to avoid falling foul of IR35, so I suppose if that were pointed out then the end client might be more willing to accommodate any methods/etc you choose that don't somehow coincide with theirs.
Hrm, perhaps it might be that your methods would usually be the ones they already use, but that doesn't allow you to show anything in terms of SDC. Are we supposed to come up with various things where we want do something differently, and agree that with the client?

John.

[MrMarkyMark]

Hi,

I see mention of this in one page regarding SDC. Is this 'kit' a real thing that someone has made up to help us, or is it a term for something that we should compile and store out of our own volition?

John.

If you send me £50 in cash, I'll get the kit out to you by return

[LondonManc]

The kit is just a name for a collection of evidence that the contract is not inside IR35. It could contain things mentioned in the link but also things that show that you're treated differently to permies - a separate contractor car park (as at Sky and other places), having to pay for staff nights out (I've had emails where contingent works (consultants and contractors) had to pay for ten pin bowling while permies got it free for example. Print them off and file them at home.

[jamesbrown]

Hi,

I see mention of this in one page regarding SDC. Is this 'kit' a real thing that someone has made up to help us, or is it a term for something that we should compile and store out of our own volition?

John.

Odd terminology. It's almost as though they're in the business of selling IR35 products . Anyway, no, there's no "kit", simply good practice, which is to evidence your status during the contract if it's outside IR35. One element of that is D&C, so you should record concrete evidence of any lack of D&C, such as the ability to set your own hours, location and, crucially, your own working methods to meet the agreed deliverables.