Reply to: Pi/PL/El insurance renewal timing.

[SandyD]

As an update the client admin came back today confirming she got all what she needs and she is forwarding it to the contract payment department, she seemed happy and not bothered that EL is missing, but I expect she must've faced this with many other contractors at this bank

[Lance]

2. Even where required, say if you employed the sub, EL can be set up in minutes - no bearing on your RoS.

I'd be more concerned of PI insurance if RoS is used. The only reason we get PI so cheap is because we're all one man bands. Have a look at what PI costs if you employ people.

But I agree that lack of insurance is irrelevant as a factor in whether RoS is a sham or not.

[malvolio]

1. EL isn't strictly a legal requirement in every case - it depends on the nature of subbing - so no bearing on your RoS.

2. Even where required, say if you employed the sub, EL can be set up in minutes - no bearing on your RoS.

3. You don't currently have an employee (or EL would be a given) so not immediately in a position to sub - a greater hurdle than buying insurance - but that doesn't hurt your RoS.

4. Cost is irrelevant. You use this every time EL is mentioned as if it proves a myth because "it's not worth arguing about".

The providers make great play on how certain insurances (or lack of) could have bearing on IR35. To my knowledge EL doesn't get pushed in this context.

If someone wants to pay a little more to get EL for sake of keeping the agent happy, or simply cos "it only costs four pence", that's fine. But please let's drop this RoS nonsense.

I did say it was a trivial consideration in all senses, including cost. However, the nature of a substitution in our world is very specific in that you remain responsible for the work and are sending in someone on your behalf to do the work for YourCo under your original contract: any other variation is merely a re-assignment of work and so outside the contract. In that particular circumstance EL would be mandatory.

So by all means point out the minimal requirement for EL 99% of the time but what I am saying is, for our purposes, entirely correct. I'm not disputing that it doesn't really matter in the real world for some of the other reasons you quoted. Other opinions are available.

[Contreras]

Just as an aside, if you have a valid Right of Substitution you will need EL, since it covers anyone working for you (which they will be as implied by an RoS) in any capacity. so while it is a minor point in the scheme of things, having an RoS without EL cover could invalidate the RoS as a sham.

1. EL isn't strictly a legal requirement in every case - it depends on the nature of subbing - so no bearing on your RoS.

2. Even where required, say if you employed the sub, EL can be set up in minutes - no bearing on your RoS.

3. You don't currently have an employee (or EL would be a given) so not immediately in a position to sub - a greater hurdle than buying insurance - but that doesn't hurt your RoS.

4. Cost is irrelevant. You use this every time EL is mentioned as if it proves a myth because "it's not worth arguing about".

The providers make great play on how certain insurances (or lack of) could have bearing on IR35. To my knowledge EL doesn't get pushed in this context.

If someone wants to pay a little more to get EL for sake of keeping the agent happy, or simply cos "it only costs four pence", that's fine. But please let's drop this RoS nonsense.

[malvolio]

Thanks, I was going to do this, will wait to see client's admin reply tomorrow as I sent just the PI/PL, if she comes back insisting on EL as well, will contact Qdos to add it.
In fact I never deliberately not taken EL, I was never asked for EL before, always just PI/PL and also Qdos just automatically issues PI/PL based on my company's information I provided ...

While my insurer issues all three... Which is why I looked up why.

[SandyD]

Just as an aside, if you have a valid Right of Substitution you will need EL, since it covers anyone working for you (which they will be as implied by an RoS) in any capacity. so while it is a minor point in the scheme of things, having an RoS without EL cover could invalidate the RoS as a sham.

Given it costs about four pence of the £200-ish or more of the full package it's really not worth arguing it, just buy it and forget it.

Thanks, I was going to do this, will wait to see client's admin reply tomorrow as I sent just the PI/PL, if she comes back insisting on EL as well, will contact Qdos to add it.
In fact I never deliberately not taken EL, I was never asked for EL before, always just PI/PL and also Qdos just automatically issues PI/PL based on my company's information I provided ...

[malvolio]

Just as an aside, if you have a valid Right of Substitution you will need EL, since it covers anyone working for you (which they will be as implied by an RoS) in any capacity. so while it is a minor point in the scheme of things, having an RoS without EL cover could invalidate the RoS as a sham.

Given it costs about four pence of the £200-ish or more of the full package it's really not worth arguing it, just buy it and forget it.

[SueEllen]

I started a new contract and already have a valid PI/PL, but was told before I didn't need EL as I am the only officer in my company and am the director, am not paying any relatives, no one else is named on the company... the new client co is asking me to provide PI/PL/EL policies, should I stand up to them and say I don't need EL??

Any official sites I can provide as evidence ?

Use Google and find where it states it in the gov.uk site for businesses.

Alternatively look at legislation.gov.uk for the relevant companies act.

As you are an adult and work in IT you should be able to find these yourself.

Edited to say: This took me a second once I went on my laptop linky

[SandyD]

I started a new contract and already have a valid PI/PL, but was told before I didn't need EL as I am the only officer in my company and am the director, am not paying any relatives, no one else is named on the company... the new client co is asking me to provide PI/PL/EL policies, should I stand up to them and say I don't need EL??

Any official sites I can provide as evidence ?

[MrMarkyMark]

Lol.. Yeah thanks for that valuable input.

Not all of us use a LTD as an avoidance strategy don't forget

Totally agree, I run a LTD company for the joy it brings, it's like a hobby to me.









I don't get out much

[northernladuk]

It's a good job you declare yourself inside IR35 for every contract as otherwise you may come across as a hypocrite while repeatedly banging that drum...

Lol.. Yeah thanks for that valuable input.

Not all of us use a LTD as an avoidance strategy don't forget

[SueEllen]

I'm not saying I won't get it just that I don't have 2 provide evidence of it for 5 months so may delay it, seems like it's not worth the effort so I'll perform the annual chuck 300 notes out of the window that I do every May!

Some agencies I've been with are aware of that trick so chase me for updated documents....

[SlipTheJab]

I suppose it depends on whether you want to be in breach of your contract, and potentially open yourself up to unlimited liability claims. Low risk i admit. Pretty flipping high impact though.

and for £300 a year. Are you having a laugh?


PS. I don't have EL and it's £205 from Qdos.

I'm not saying I won't get it just that I don't have 2 provide evidence of it for 5 months so may delay it, seems like it's not worth the effort so I'll perform the annual chuck 300 notes out of the window that I do every May!

[SlipTheJab]

Bit of a piss take if you want to employ your wife so you can pay her in a tax avoidance set up but then argue she's not an employee when it comes to your legal obligation to have insurance really.

It's a good job you declare yourself inside IR35 for every contract as otherwise you may come across as a hypocrite while repeatedly banging that drum...

[Lance]

Your missus says she has 20% of the shares in your company. Do you pay her wage as well?

Yes she is a shareholder but no she's not an employee.

And it's our company not mine :P