Vanquish Options - Opinions? (AML/Knox related)

**Iliketax** · 18 April 2018, 20:05

Originally posted by ozzyo99 View Post

I called them earlier to understand their proposal (details are light) and it just seems somewhat too good to be true.

I think that there is a famous phrase about something being too good to be true...

Originally posted by ozzyo99 View Post

On the phone they described the mechanism as effectively Vanquish paying off the loan amount and taking ownership of the loan under a different vehicle which was seemingly not within the scope of the legislation (yet?!).

As you describe it, that is bollocks. Have a look at para 3(b) here: Finance (No. 2) Act 2017

The "relevant person" is basically the person who borrowed the cash. So unless the borrower repays it, it doesn't count as a repayment.

If the "effectively" you added is that someone lends you the money to allow you to repay the loan, then that itself is a loan that creates a new disguised remuneration tax charge.

For the avoidance of doubt, there are probably three or four more other reasons why what you have described doesn't work.

Originally posted by ozzyo99 View Post

Has anybody more information on this and can anybody shed any light on the possibility of something like this working?

Yes. It won't work. You'd be better off spending your money on Friday's lottery (£110m jackpot) rather than on their fees.

**ozzyo99** · 18 April 2018, 20:26

Originally posted by Iliketax View Post

I think that there is a famous phrase about something being too good to be true...

As you describe it, that is bollocks. Have a look at para 3(b) here: Finance (No. 2) Act 2017

The "relevant person" is basically the person who borrowed the cash. So unless the borrower repays it, it doesn't count as a repayment.

If the "effectively" you added is that someone lends you the money to allow you to repay the loan, then that itself is a loan that creates a new disguised remuneration tax charge.

For the avoidance of doubt, there are probably three or four more other reasons why what you have described doesn't work.

Yes. It won't work. You'd be better off spending your money on Friday's lottery (£110m jackpot) rather than on their fees.

I've probably done them a huge injustice, but as I said, it was a 5 minute call with a teleworker - not an exhaustive low level view. Really I was interested to see if any others had gleaned an understanding I hadn't, or had actually committed to using them.

Thanks for the comment though, I'm very much in the same boat and if it weren't for the fact they were referenced in the originating email I'd have never called them. I suspect they're AML connected and that's what made me consider that they may have something they've identified.

At this stage, I want it all behind me and to just get on with life...

**Loan Ranger** · 19 April 2018, 07:37

In their email, AML say

"Vanquish Options can provide a mechanism to repay your existing loan which meets the requirements of the Loan Charge legislation and is supported by Tax Counsel opinion."

It doesn't say much for their Tax Counsel, if it's that obviously flawed.

**piebaps** · 19 April 2018, 08:06

PTS Limited registry entry here https://services.gov.im/ded/services....iom?Id=426515

It has one shareholder. A BVI company called Perree Limited (you will have to pay a £2 registry fee to view this though)

**Runster** · 19 April 2018, 08:32

I phoned Vanquish yesterday - the didn't have an automated telephony system to tell me how important my call was to them, and they didn't pick up the phone. Doesn't fill me with confidence!

**Fred Bloggs** · 19 April 2018, 08:56

Originally posted by piebaps View Post

PTS Limited registry entry here https://services.gov.im/ded/services....iom?Id=426515

It has one shareholder. A BVI company called Perree Limited (you will have to pay a £2 registry fee to view this though)

Terrific, you have to pay (I think) USD 146 for the BVI company details but interestingly, it seems another Perree Ltd in Malta are in turn the directors of the BVI entity. Just the sort of people you really want to hand your money over to eh?

**Iliketax** · 19 April 2018, 09:35

Originally posted by Loan Ranger View Post

In their email, AML say

"Vanquish Options can provide a mechanism to repay your existing loan which meets the requirements of the Loan Charge legislation and is supported by Tax Counsel opinion."

It doesn't say much for their Tax Counsel, if it's that obviously flawed.

Perhaps they mean physically supported? As in their piece of paper with their "mechanism" on is resting on some old counsel's opinion from the 1970s that they forgot to put in the bin.

**Genesis** · 19 April 2018, 11:18

Originally posted by Fred Bloggs View Post

Terrific, you have to pay (I think) USD 146 for the BVI company details but interestingly, it seems another Perree Ltd in Malta are in turn the directors of the BVI entity. Just the sort of people you really want to hand your money over to eh?

If I'm honest, I'd hand over my money to anyone if they can provide me with some sort of guarantee that they'll fix the problems and they won't come back again. Unfortunately, at this moment in time, that basically starts and finishes with HMRC themselves and that obviously comes at a premium.

I had dialogue with both PTS and Vanquish. Incidentally, both of their Letter of Authority agreement forms, are pretty much identical in nature which more or less confirms that they are aligned and part of AML/KHT. Either way, it may be a case of having to use them and pay the loan repayment charges if it turns out that it's the least costliest option and buys me a couple of more years. Maybe a bit naïve. Who knows.

As for the loan repayment part. It did sound reasonably plausible to me when explained, but then again, I'm not exactly The Mark Zuckerberg of taxation matters so I do base my opinion with the caveat that I could be being fleesed again.

Essentially, if there is no loan, then then LC does not apply to you. How that is paid and by whom is an open ended question for me at least. Something along the lines of a newly formed credit company (I suppose this is where the 5% charge goes), but then again, if it's simply a case of writing off the loan amount, can't they do that without a whopping 5% charge?

Listen, if they have good tax barristers who have looked into it and are confident it will pass the law that currently exists, then who am I to disagree. I would be completely gobsmacked if it was not credible and was deemed to be a scam. I mean, up until the Govt changed the law and introduced this retrospective tax, which in itself is morally unethical and contestable through courts, AML's plan did stand up to scrutiny. HMRC seemingly tried on a few occasions to say loans from employers were taxable and failed did they not.

I at least got the loan payment info for the years prior to 2016 from AML themselves. PTS state they can only give overall figures. So I know what I'm dealing with now and if we applied a notional 30% tax on that in the form of a settlement and that was allowed to be paid up over 4 years, then I could possibly live with that - even though it would be exceptionally difficult to build into my income level and outgoings.

I'd rather go with Option 3 (loan repayment) but need more info on it from Vanquish or anyone else who may have a bit more insight.

Any help appreciated. This situation sucks the big fat one!!

**webberg** · 19 April 2018, 11:44

My advice is that you should go and get professional advice from an unbiased source.

There are a few of us here and I'm sure Google is your friend as well.

If your issue is not so much affording the total, but needing to spread the pain over a number of years, then my advice would be to get some calculation from HMRC under their present offer and discuss how long they might give you to pay.

That is likely, in the medium term, to be less problematic than a "scheme to fix a scheme", which HMRC will, in my opinion, challenge none too gently.

Clearly I have not seen the details of the Vanquish proposal and suspect that they would be reluctant to share them with me. I have therefore no opinion on its bona fides or the strength of its QC opinion. The clue is however in "opinion". Ultimately the test of that opinion is in Court and that might take several years and cost a lot of fees and will not, usually, prevent the tax being paid in the meantime.

You will find professional opinion in these threads varies. Iliketax above has raised a very valid point that replacement loans are just as capable of being taxed as original loans. I know Phil@dtrs has a more pragmatic and less literal legalistic view. I have a view that is founded in our core strategy. I'm sure that some of the other tax advisers mentioned in this forum would be willing to share their views.

The one thing you must do however is pause and think this over once you have information.

Vanquish Options - Opinions? (AML/Knox related)