Deloitte confirms post-April 2021 ban on PSCs

[Fraidycat]

Company X gives contractor Y an outside determination backed up with a pass from CEST.

How does HMRC prove the determination is wrong ie. the client made the wrong determination.

Any enquiry is going to be handled by Company X's legal department. Who will have the resources to get proper legal advice in handling the enquiry and will not want to make the company liable in any way.

Unless someone on the inside on company X (a disgruntled permie perhaps) snitches or the contractor himself gives evidence against the company i cant see how how HMRC can gather enough evidence to bring any sort of case to tribunal or court.

[Fraidycat]

I'm still of the view that at least some big corporates will take a different stance. They'll get their legal/risk/insurance/HR bods to work together and get contracts with clear working practices that make them safe from IR35. They'll then offer outside gigs. Everything else being equal these will be more appealing to contractors than inside gigs elsewhere. This will give those corporates first pick of the best contractors.

This is exactly what current client co is doing.

No brainer really. It is easy to get a genuine pass from CEST if working practices really are outside IR35.

[jammer]

Everyone will have their own personal anecdotes from the sectors in which they typically work. Remember, the reform hasn’t happened yet and many companies are only now starting to act. If you want more than a couple of anecdotes, read the CUK news or look at offpayroll.org.uk. The market is about to change fundamentally. As you say yourself, you were asked to stay as a permie.

Deloitte, Metro Bank, Zurich, Three UK and BoI ban limited company contractors, as IR35 reform looms

Find fairer IR35 & CV19 clients, agents & brollys. OffPayroll.org.uk

Sure, very true. Will check out those links, thanks.

[jamesbrown]

From the companies I'm talking to, they are all struggling to find good developers to employ. Everyone in the market now are the ones that didn't make the pandemic cull so they are all the juniors and staff that should have been gotten rid off before.

Literally, every company I talk too at the moment is struggling to fill senior roles with permies as they can't find decent ones. That's been true of every company I've contracted for since the start of 2020.

All of them have asked me to stay as a permie at the end of the contract.

Everyone will have their own personal anecdotes from the sectors in which they typically work. Remember, the reform hasn’t happened yet and many companies are only now starting to act. If you want more than a couple of anecdotes, read the CUK news or look at offpayroll.org.uk. The market is about to change fundamentally. As you say yourself, you were asked to stay as a permie.

Deloitte, Metro Bank, Zurich, Three UK and BoI ban limited company contractors, as IR35 reform looms

Find fairer IR35 & CV19 clients, agents & brollys. OffPayroll.org.uk

[jammer]

I'm still of the view that at least some big corporates will take a different stance. They'll get their legal/risk/insurance/HR bods to work together and get contracts with clear working practices that make them safe from IR35. They'll then offer outside gigs. Everything else being equal these will be more appealing to contractors than inside gigs elsewhere. This will give those corporates first pick of the best contractors.

Given how many IR35 cases HMRC lose even when the end client hasn't really cared (hence potentially done/said things unhelpful to the contractor from an IR35 perspective), surely it won't be too hard for corporates to be 99% confident they'd win any HMRC legal challenges?

I think as with lots of things, there'll be an initial over-reaction, then a gradual drift back to the new normal (which will be lots of outside IR35 contracting gigs...but now no risk for the contractor).

This is sort of along the lines I'm hearing and thinking as well.

I honestly think there is a silver lining in all of this.

I've been approaching this a bit differently or at least trying to push towards the kind of arrangements we should have always had, such as using statements of work.

Lets face it, at the heart of IR35 is actually a sound idea. Contractors should have never been sitting at the same desk for 20 years claiming not to be employees. But just as with everything else HMRC, it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut and a broken sledgehammer at that.

When I contract I'm NOT an employee, I don't want to be spoken about like one, or thought about as one, as I fundamentally am not an employee. On top of that, the company paying the fee has to start appreciating that fact and the changes ushured in by IR35 can be capitalised on to formalise that a bit more I think. They haven't "found a temp member of staff", they've engaged with a company, fundamentally different.

I had to go three rounds of amendments on my current one to get the legals right and this was from an agency that HAD done IR35 checks on their contracts and were fairly up-to-speed on things.

Interesting times I think.

[jammer]

When a large corporate reads those words, they filter out everything except "HMRC legal challenges".

It just isn't worth the faff. They will have plenty of excellent candidates to choose from, especially during a pandemic.

From the companies I'm talking to, they are all struggling to find good developers to employ. Everyone in the market now are the ones that didn't make the pandemic cull so they are all the juniors and staff that should have been gotten rid off before.

Literally, every company I talk too at the moment is struggling to fill senior roles with permies as they can't find decent ones. That's been true of every company I've contracted for since the start of 2020.

All of them have asked me to stay as a permie at the end of the contract.

[Paralytic]

When a large corporate reads those words, they filter out everything except "HMRC legal challenges".

It just isn't worth the faff. They will have plenty of excellent candidates to choose from, especially during a pandemic.

I'd agree with this. All this "some big clients will take the risk to get the best people" is cloud-cuckoo stuff - there are very few skills where there is not an active market of good quality candidates. Even those that claim they're worth £2000/day.

There will be a handful of outside roles at bigger clients, and more at some small-to-mid-range companies (those not classed as small under IR35), but the market will be very different after April.

[jamesbrown]

corporates to be 99% confident they'd win any HMRC legal challenges

When a large corporate reads those words, they filter out everything except "HMRC legal challenges".

It just isn't worth the faff. They will have plenty of excellent candidates to choose from, especially during a pandemic.

[Maslins]

I'm still of the view that at least some big corporates will take a different stance. They'll get their legal/risk/insurance/HR bods to work together and get contracts with clear working practices that make them safe from IR35. They'll then offer outside gigs. Everything else being equal these will be more appealing to contractors than inside gigs elsewhere. This will give those corporates first pick of the best contractors.

Given how many IR35 cases HMRC lose even when the end client hasn't really cared (hence potentially done/said things unhelpful to the contractor from an IR35 perspective), surely it won't be too hard for corporates to be 99% confident they'd win any HMRC legal challenges?

I think as with lots of things, there'll be an initial over-reaction, then a gradual drift back to the new normal (which will be lots of outside IR35 contracting gigs...but now no risk for the contractor).

[jamesbrown]

No-brainer relative to the other options.