Oh Dear: UK jobless level at six-year high

[Fungus]

Romanian women are much prettier than Polish ones. They also use horse drawn caravans to travel around which of course pollutes the environment less than car drivers. I understand that they are particularly good at Risk management as their women can see into the future

Viktor: Before you launch into a "we have running water and electricity" tirade, I think you will find that the above is satire, and is amusing because it plays on our stereotypes of Eastern Europe. I think the illusion of seeing into the future derives from the view that Romanian women are all gypsies. English humour can be subtle. (Even on this board.)

On the issue of immigration, I don't see why you should have an automatic right to work here. For me to work in America, I need to be sponsored by an employer, who must declare that he cannot find an American to do the same job, and hence he wants to employ me. We have rising employment and rising unemployment, and a massive shortage of housing, leading to a boom in house prices. This is largely due to the massive immigration of Eastern Europeans. Recent estimates are that 500,000 have arrived in the previous two years, though it is hard to be sure. Would you care to tell me why you should be allowed to displace a native from his/her job?

I think the middle classes love the Eastern Europeans. They push up the value of their houses - yippee - and provide a supply of cheap hard working plumbers and electricians - yippee. It's the chavvy types, and the young wno are peed off. They can't afford a house, and they can't find a job. These are the people who tend to vote New Liar, so maybe just maybe we will see a swing towards the Tories from the chavs.

[NickIT]

One thing that has always struck me about the immigration issue is that no one seems to take into account the number of Brits who have left the country for France or the Costa's.

I remember hearing that there are something 500,000 Brits living in France. How many are in now living Australia, the US, Spain etc?

Not wanting to get into a pig fight but there seems to be many vested interests in the immigration debate and very few people seem to be able to be rational about this subject.

I have no major issues with people coming here to work as eventually most will move back to their country of orgin as exemplified by the Windrush generation. Of course within reason. We do have limited space. This is true.

What I do have an issue with is signs in another language with English underneath (and other such insanities).

If you wish to work here (and are allowed....afterall we don't want criminals) you need to integrate and that means learning the language. And lets face it. English is THE international language and really not that hard to learn (speaking as a multi-linguist).

My ghod...I'm a Liberal!

[Fungus]

NickIT: People do take into account people leaving this country to settle eslewhere, and there are lots of them. But the issue is NET immigration. That is running at record levels. Some while back net immigration was about zero.

In Spain the locals are rather peeved that the Brits are buying up property as holiday and/or retirement homes. They are putting a strain on the local services as old people need more medical care, and they do not integrate properly. There is also some resistance in France from Brits buying up property, and in some areas the percentage of Brits can be quite high. A willingness to integrate is essential.

[NickIT]

NickIT: People do take into account people leaving this country to settle eslewhere, and there are lots of them. But the issue is NET immigration. That is running at record levels. Some while back net immigration was about zero.

In Spain the locals are rather peeved that the Brits are buying up property as holiday and/or retirement homes. They are putting a strain on the local services as old people need more medical care, and they do not integrate properly. There is also some resistance in France from Brits buying up property, and in some areas the percentage of Brits can be quite high. A willingness to integrate is essential.

You see this is what I am unclear on. If we have 500K immigrants in this country and there are 500K Brits in France...

However you do hit the nail...A willingness to integrate...and that must be on all sides.

I make no pretense of being an expert and up until recently I had no issues with immigration but it is getting crazy now. I find that locking people up and their children is not the right thing to do and I am embarrassed that we treat people like that. On the flip side I am not happy about economic migrants.

Is there a clear cut right/wrong answer to this issue? I do not think there is.

It does need to be resolved and swiftly or else ordinary Britons will never understand the meaning of 'an honest days work'. (ok ok...I know we're contractors )

[Viktor]

Fungus : don't get me wrong, I understand and agree with many of your points and I like the typical British (subtle) humour . I've seen many countries and from a business perspective UK is at the top of the list...
But on the other hand I hear so often the same misconceptions about Eastern Europe in general (Eastern Europe tends to be seen as a whole - the countries are in fact quite different) and this (sometimes) pisses me off. I don't have such a freedom of work as you tend to believe; I have clear limitations on my visa and I can work as a contractor only. I can't claim public funds but interesting enough I have to pay taxes as an individual AND company. I agree with your immigration issues but after all why this country has such a lax border policy combined with a tulipe visa system? I hear stories each month about Romanians who are here illegally with fake passports and they passed even the border with forged documents (they tend to come from our lower skilled labour pool) . How can they work here FFS??? At the same time folks who just want to travel or to genuinely do work / business here are hit with all sort of tulipe from Home Office / foreign embassy
Maybe I overreacted...but after years spent in communism, after years of lack of freedom to travel (Schengen visas etc.) and when on top of this you hear again the old refrain about the East, sometimes even a British will loose the traditional calm, don't you think? ...

[Fungus]

You see this is what I am unclear on. If we have 500K immigrants in this country and there are 500K Brits in France...

NickIT: Net means the total, taking into account newcomers and leavers. In otherwords, the overall status is a massive inflow of people, predominantly from Eastern Europe. To quote from Migration Watch, "Over the period 1999 – 2003 there has been a net international inflow of half a million people." Bear in mind that they use government statistics, and hence they are conservative estimates.

Viktor: You might not be able to easily work here (yet) but Poles can. That is a result of the enlargement of the EU, and the decision of the UK government to allow in anyone from the EU. Most other EU countries have restrictions. I am against unmanaged immigration, though I think that immigration can be very positive for us all. The government is not even having a discussion as to whether or not it is a good thing, and if it is, whether we should restrict immigration to skilled people to fill vacant jobs. They don't even know the nature of the arrivals e.g. age, sex, skills, how long they stay etc. Bloody incompetent New Liar.

[NickIT]

NickIT: Net means the total, taking into account newcomers and leavers. In otherwords, the overall status is a massive inflow of people, predominantly from Eastern Europe. To quote from Migration Watch, "Over the period 1999 – 2003 there has been a net international inflow of half a million people." Bear in mind that they use government statistics, and hence they are conservative estimates.

I am fully aware of what net means...I did pass 'O' level maths! LOL

My point is that if 500k have left and 500k have arrived...you have a net gain of...0!

Not withstanding those who have moved to other part so of the world. Does Migrationwatch have figures on those people? How many have left?

[NickIT]

Viktor: You might not be able to easily work here (yet) but Poles can. That is a result of the enlargement of the EU, and the decision of the UK government to allow in anyone from the EU. Most other EU countries have restrictions. I am against unmanaged immigration, though I think that immigration can be very positive for us all. The government is not even having a discussion as to whether or not it is a good thing, and if it is, whether we should restrict immigration to skilled people to fill vacant jobs. They don't even know the nature of the arrivals e.g. age, sex, skills, how long they stay etc. Bloody incompetent New Liar.

I am in total agreement with you on this! Well put!

[Fungus]

I am fully aware of what net means...I did pass 'O' level maths! LOL

My point is that if 500k have left and 500k have arrived...you have a net gain of...0!

Not withstanding those who have moved to other part so of the world. Does Migrationwatch have figures on those people? How many have left?

Errr ... what! Are you taking the piss?

Net = (number arriving - number leaving).

Therefore more people are arriving than leaving. I have no idea how many left and how many arrived. All I know is that the difference is 500,000. In other words, in 4 years the population of the UK increased by 500,000. And that is believed to be a conservative estimate.

[NickIT]

Errr ... what! Are you taking the piss?

Net = (number arriving - number leaving).

Therefore more people are arriving than leaving. I have no idea how many left and how many arrived. All I know is that the difference is 500,000. In other words, in 4 years the population of the UK increased by 500,000. And that is believed to be a conservative estimate.

Steady on!

No not taking the piss...I misunderstood you. My apologies.

You see all I have heard is that we have had 500k odd immigrants come to this country. No-one has mentioned how many have left (my 500k figure was based on some BBC2 programme on people living in France).

I have not seen a single official figure for leavers. All the figures I have seen are for people coming into the country.