So was the 2nd World War all for nothing?

[doodab]

Excuse me but according to you by letting Cameron veto the EU economic plan that would control the UK economy he has already committed political suicide, so you cannot cop out of this one that easily.

I think he's done the wrong thing for Britain, but I don't think it's political suicide.

[Arturo Bassick]

Why are we demonising the Germans? They are the economic power house that is expected to fund most of this so they are bound to be at the fore of promoting solutions. There is nothing in any of the solutions that say they have to be run past ze Germans.

[doodab]

So what if the Greeks, Spaniards and Italians get together to borrow like mad and the Germans vetoed them would that be undemocratic?

But it wouldn't be "the Germans vetoing them", it would be the rules that they agreed to and signed up for that stop them doing it.

[BlasterBates]

If the Euro is so bad why is Germany powering along with higher growth rates, lower unemployment and a balanced budget?

Why is Holland powering along with higher growth rates, lower unemployment and a balanced budget?

Why is Luxembourg.......ok I could go on and on and on....

Of the 17 countries in the Eurozone most of them are doing far better than Britain.

So it is obviously not quite so simple as Pound good/Euro bad. The point being you run good government the Euro is no impediment to a healthy functioning economy. I think you'll find if the UK continues on the road to Greece, and it is halfway there, it'll be just as painful. Greece is experiencing a 6% contraction, and so did Iceland when it went bankrupt.

In the end if you overspend and go bankrupt you'll go through a painful contraction, and a devaluation won't make a great deal of difference. A country would have to issue it's debt in Euro regardless of whether it has it's own currency.

I think you'll find most bankrupt Eurozone countries recovering in 2013, once they've been through the "wringer".

[DodgyAgent]

If the Euro is so bad why is Germany powering along with higher growth rates, lower unemployment and a balanced budget?

Why is Holland powering along with higher growth rates, lower unemployment and a balanced budget?

Why is Luxembourg.......ok I could go on and on and on....

Of the 17 countries in the Eurozone most of them are doing far better than Britain.

So it is obviously not quite so simple as Pound good/Euro bad. The point being you run good government the Euro is no impediment to a healthy functioning economy. I think you'll find if the UK continues on the road to Greece, and it is halfway there, it'll be just as painful. Greece is experiencing a 6% contraction, but hang on so did Iceland when it went bankrupt.

In the end you go bankrupt you'll go through a painful contraction.

Do I have to say it again?
The Germans impose the Euro, Greeks and Italians and Spaniards invited to also join believing think that they will become wealthier with higher wages, a strong currency etc etc.
Greek wages indeed rise removing the cost advantages of Greek manufacturing. Euro remains relatively low to take account of the PIIGS economies which in turn keeps the Northern Europe Euro economies very competitive in export markets. german and dutch people do not spend money on their own products.
German banks lend money to Greek government and people in order that there is more money to spend on German manufactured goods.
Germans surprised and righteous when Euro goes Norks up - nand we want to trust the Germans to run our economy? Give it to the Greeks to run at least we know what they are up to.

[BlasterBates]

Do I have to say it again?
The Germans impose the Euro, Greeks and Italians and Spaniards invited to also join believing think that they will become wealthier with higher wages, a strong currency etc etc.
Greek wages indeed rise removing the cost advantages of Greek manufacturing. Euro remains relatively low to take account of the PIIGS economies which in turn keeps the Northern Europe Euro economies very competitive in export markets. german and dutch people do not spend money on their own products.
German banks lend money to Greek government and people in order that there is more money to spend on German manufactured goods.
Germans surprised and righteous when Euro goes Norks up - nand we want to trust the Germans to run our economy? Give it to the Greeks to run at least we know what they are up to.

I just want to correct one point here....the Germans agreed to the common currency on the insistence of France and Italy, heavily supported by "club med". Greece bulldozed its way into the Euro. The Germans insisted on criteria that should have meant Greece couldn't join, but they let them in anyway because it was a small country they thought wouldn't do any harm.

Thr trouble with the Eurosceptic argument it is driven by emotion, so instead of accepting that Germany agreed to the Common currency as a price for unification, they are now demonising Germany claiming they are "imposing the currency". This of course makes good press because they can hark back to WWII.

If you were to listen to Merkel you may have heard her say that the Greeks have to decide whether they would like to stay in the Euro.

[bless 'em all]

Has anyone mentioned the movies?

Dambusters
611 Squadren
In which we serve
The longest day

I doubt Hollywood's going to be queuing up to make a movie about Greeks spending too much money.

[DodgyAgent]

I just want to correct one point here....the Germans agreed to the common currency on the insistence of France and Italy, heavily supported by "club med". Greece bulldozed its way into the Euro. The Germans insisted on criteria that should have meant Greece couldn't join, but they let them in anyway because it was a small country they thought wouldn't do any harm.

Thr trouble with the Eurosceptic argument it is driven by emotion, so instead of accepting that Germany agreed to the Common currency as a price for unification, they are now demonising Germany claiming they are "imposing the currency". This of course makes good press because they can hark back to WWII.

If you were to listen to Merkel you may have heard her say that the Greeks have to decide whether they would like to stay in the Euro.

Eurosceptics are not demonising the Germans at all. They/we are simply pointing out that the Germans -I will accept that gaining sovereignty over other Nations was not their agenda- are as much at fault for the problem as anyone else. They like the Greeks were enticed by the immediate benefits of joining so they have nothing to complain about because they have benefitted just as the Greeks did, but it is now time to pay the Bill. Britain did not join thank god and yet people like you are arguing that we should hand over the running of our economy to the Germans/European Union, the latter of who cannot even get their accounts signed off .
Like I said before the Eurosceptic view is nothing to do with emotion. It is to do with hard economic facts and they have been proved totally right by events.

You have not offered any logical argument as to the competency of the European Union to run our economy, nor have you shown how or why the Germans should run it either.

This thread was about WW2 and what people died for. They died in order to preserve the freedom of European sovereign nations to determine their own governments and their own way to run their affairs. You pathetic little people never learn which is why history has a habit of repeating itself.

[Ignis Fatuus]

So show me an example where the running of another country's economy has worked for the benefit of the people of that country. Is it like the Chinese running Tibet? Or the Germans running Poland? Or Russia running Georgia? israel running Palestine?

Or England running Scotland. Quite.

[DodgyAgent]

Or England running Scotland. Quite.