Baby P's Killers' Identity Legally Disclosed

[Sundial]

I read the names of those involved in this a few months ago (plastered all over the internet, really) but reading yesterday about the brothers torturing animals made me run out into the garden and scoop up my kitty to hold her for a bit.

I couldn't bear the thought of anyone hurting her little furry self, so can imagine how news about the little boy makes people feel.

Having said that, I find it difficult to read reporting/comments about an eye for an eye in prison, like the prisoners are to be abhorred in the usual course of things but if they act out towards these evil people then they are suddenly self-appointed figures of justice.

And whilst babies are the most vulnerable how do people feel about the kids who are 9 or 10 years of age or young teenagers and going off the rails? People seem to get aggravated about them and say they're doomed and little chavs, but they are very vulnerable as well and often acting out against the way they have been brought up. P might have come to this if he had lived to be older and I doubt there would be much sympathy then.

I dunno, I expect I would be ranting with the best of them if I had kids :-) It's still one of the most horrid things I've heard of.

Like Zippy I have broken up fights (the last one was when a man started on another whilst waiting for the night bus home, and I was really startled to receive a wayward punch for my efforts!!). I think I would always try to help if something happened and I witnessed it, but you naturally get more cautious when you get older. What's that syndrome called where people witness things but don't intervene because they assume other people will?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

... What's that syndrome called where people witness things but don't intervene because they assume other people will?

Thatcherism? On no hang on - that's when you don't intervene because you don't care because there is no such thing as society and it's everyone for themselves.

On a more serious note, whlist I abhor cat lovers (and cats) I don't wish them any ill - apparently a propensity to mistreat and even torture animals has been seen in quite a few child abusers, guess it makes sense, but I doubt anyone ever makes a formal link - eg do social services investigate the home life of people convicted of cruelty to animals?

[Sundial]

Thatcherism? On no hang on - that's when you don't intervene because you don't care because there is no such thing as society and it's everyone for themselves.

On a more serious note, whlist I abhor cat lovers (and cats) I don't wish them any ill - apparently a propensity to mistreat and even torture animals has been seen in quite a few child abusers, guess it makes sense, but I doubt anyone ever makes a formal link - eg do social services investigate the home life of people convicted of cruelty to animals?

I wish I could remember the name of the syndrome! I kept thinking Stockholm initially, it's something along those lines, a German name I think. Quite common and studied, most people really will bow out if they think someone else will deal with it.

I doubt that Social Services do investigate with relation to animal cruelty (though I don't know), even court cases have to be dealt with by a non-judgmental jury. Is that a contradiction?! It's a two way pull, and of course innocent until proven guilty.

Interesting as a lot of cases involving people who grow up to show violence and cruelty towards others have started off by showing violence towards animals, like Fred West.

My cat is so vulnerable, she was shown violence in her early years and is very nervous as a result (we knew that when we took her on and have to be extra careful with her), I can appreciate others might not be cat-lovers but it totally freaks me out to imagine anyone could be violent towards her :-)

[bobhope]

Thatcherism? On no hang on - that's when you don't intervene because you don't care because there is no such thing as society and it's everyone for themselves.

On a more serious note, whlist I abhor cat lovers (and cats) I don't wish them any ill - apparently a propensity to mistreat and even torture animals has been seen in quite a few child abusers, guess it makes sense, but I doubt anyone ever makes a formal link - eg do social services investigate the home life of people convicted of cruelty to animals?

Is it cruel to blast cats with water soakers when they are c**ping all over my garden? Is it a slippery slope to becoming Hannibal Lecter?

[Sundial]

Is it cruel to blast cats with water soakers when they are c**ping all over my garden? Is it a slippery slope to becoming Hannibal Lecter?

Do you not want to cat-sit for me?

I'm sure you can keep your baser instincts in tow and you never know, you could become meaningful and caring and concerned and sharing *inane smiling grin*

Suss that, I AM joking. Don't come round and kill my cat.

[realityhack]

I wish I could remember the name of the syndrome! I kept thinking Stockholm initially, it's something along those lines, a German name I think. Quite common and studied, most people really will bow out if they think someone else will deal with it.

It's a syndrome I like to call 'selfish cowardice'.

I've seen it quite a bit in London, in particular.

But seriously - there may be a herd mentality to it - if lots of people freeze and do nothing, you're more inclined to. One of the reasons I think it's more pronounced in cities. That and the lack of accountability felt in large populations - as opposed to the higher accountability and levels of social cohesion in smaller communities.

I also read recently that there are basically 3 types of reactions to a crisis - 10% of people will immediately assess the situation, suppress panic and deal with the situation. 80% will freeze, be bewildered, feel detached or simply unable to act at all. 10% will freak out. Ah - it's covered in a Mail article here but I read it elsewhere.

So maybe it's not selfish cowardice after all. Not when it directly affects you and you're one of that 80% perhaps.

But when you see violence inflicted on another and you're not directly threatened, there's no excuse, even if that 10-80-10 theory is correct, IMHO.

[MrToast]

It's a syndrome I like to call 'selfish cowardice'.

I've seen it quite a bit in London, in particular.

<snip>

But when you see violence inflicted on another and you're not directly threatened, there's no excuse, even if that 10-80-10 theory is correct, IMHO.

Easy to say that RH but quite different in reality I'd imagine when faced with intervening when a gang of teenagers are the perpatrators. The thing is that you just don't know if you are going to get a knife in the ribs for your troubles these days. Of course I'd always try to help if I can but sometimes you do not know if those split seconds what the best thing to do is. I tend to agree that in London this thing is rife where people are afraid to do or say anything.

I did read a book a few years back which I purchased for MrsToast and I, titled "Fear" by Geoff Thompson, which expalins the fear/flight/fight thing and how to deal with adrenaline dumps and the steps that you can take to minimise violent encounters or protect yourself in violent situations. Quite a good read actually if you haven't had any martial arts training and you're not 16 stone of muscle. I'm glad that MrsToast read it as it has made her more aware when travelling home in London late at night.

[xoggoth]

As I have said before, we need a practical justice system that makes protection from criminals the priority and these people need to be locked up, probably until they are too old to offend.

However, you can see what made them as they are. Unless you have had an upbringing like that you can have no idea what it does. The irony is that, had baby P survived, there is a fair chance that people would be calling him an evil vicious killer/abuser in 20 years.

[Sundial]

Easy to say that RH but quite different in reality I'd imagine when faced with intervening when a gang of teenagers are the perpatrators. The thing is that you just don't know if you are going to get a knife in the ribs for your troubles these days. Of course I'd always try to help if I can but sometimes you do not know if those split seconds what the best thing to do is. I tend to agree that in London this thing is rife where people are afraid to do or say anything.

I did read a book a few years back which I purchased for MrsToast and I, titled "Fear" by Geoff Thompson, which expalins the fear/flight/fight thing and how to deal with adrenaline dumps and the steps that you can take to minimise violent encounters or protect yourself in violent situations. Quite a good read actually if you haven't had any martial arts training and you're not 16 stone of muscle. I'm glad that MrsToast read it as it has made her more aware when travelling home in London late at night.

I was hoping to convey this in my post.

It IS scary to be confronted with large groups. I've done it in the past but I would think twice about it now, though I'm a tiny 5'2" and have a Joan of Arc syndrome (i.e. think something's right and rush into it consequences regardless).

And I still can't remember the name of that syndrome, honest you all know, it came to light with the street where someone was harmed and everyone else heard but thought someone else would deal with it!

[realityhack]

Easy to say that RH but quite different in reality I'd imagine when faced with intervening when a gang of teenagers are the perpatrators. The thing is that you just don't know if you are going to get a knife in the ribs for your troubles these days. Of course I'd always try to help if I can but sometimes you do not know if those split seconds what the best thing to do is.

I know what you mean - Maybe, as the Mail article says, it's just that the 80% don't know what to do, their brain goes into a loop, and they either freeze or irrationally go about their normal business.

Even having a vague idea about what you would do in such a situation would help to snap you out of inaction - sounds like the book you mention addressed this.

I'm not, btw, suggesting anyone who doesn't know what they're doing wade into a situation such as you describe above. But there are other things you can do.