the cost of trains is unreal

[Mich the Tester]

You must expect a lot of disagreement from this board on that one. Thatcher sold off the railways because she believed the opposite. So anyone who agrees with Thatcher is necessarily against nationalising the railway companies.

I agreed with the privatisation of BP, BT and British Gas but at the time I didn’t think it would work with the railways and it hasn’t worked.

British Rail was, to be honest, not all that great either, but at least it was affordable. I think it was ruined by bean counters, starting with the Beeching axe, but continuing into the 80s when politicians withdrew support for advances like the APT, which suffered teething problems as does any new technology, but went on to be perfected and built by Italian and French companies. Now we have British privatised rail companies buying British technology from French and Italian companies.

The other problem seems to me to be the conflicting needs of train companies and track maintenance firm, and this is a problem we see in NL too. The track maintenance firms want to do as little maintenance as possible against as high a price as they can get away with. The train operators want well maintained infrastructure but don’t want to pay too much for it. Add the complication of how much competing train operators should each pay for their use of infrastructure and you have a situation that’s very difficult to manage at an acceptable cost.

[d000hg]

I go down to London from Newcastle regularly. I'm keen on reducing my carbon footprint and always check the train fares first, then I book a plane ticket, which on average has been half the price.

Last time, trying to save a few bob, I looked at flying to Stanstead and getting the train in from there.

£34 return to fly to Stanstead.

£58 return on the train into London.

They can go swing for it!

And Newcastle/London is a route with multiple services isn't it - Virgin and GNER? I know that mainline has both anyway; I used to commute into Newcastle from Durham.

[Mich the Tester]

As for complication for customers, I’ve travelled all over Europe by train, just buying tickets as I go, but I wouldn’t even know where to start if I want to get a fair price on British trains.

[TimberWolf]

The cost isn't fuel. Full trains have a transport efficiency of around 1.6 kWh per 100 km (per passenger), so a 500 km trip should only use around 8 kWh, or about 80 pence worth of fuel at 10p/kWh.

A (full) 747 has a transport efficiency of 42 - 26 times higher than the train - but plane journeys are faster (and hence have a faster capital return) and there are no roads/tracks to maintain.

National express do the return trip for around £40.

[Mr Crosby]

I've got to go to Newcastle from Brum Saturday. Train is £35 one way, a flight is £345....

[Pickle2]

I regularly use virgin west coast mainline services, which connects London to Edinburgh, calls at stoke / manchester / liverpool etc.

Prices have gone up a fair bit since I first starting using it, prob costs me 33% more at least since just a few years ago.

However, the service has improved no end. Now that the big west coast upgrade is more or less done, journey times have on some days halfed.

For me its well worth the extra cash.

Flying often looks cheap until you add on the price (and time) of getting to/from the airports. The heathrow express - now thats expensive!

[Pickle2]

As for complication for customers, I’ve travelled all over Europe by train, just buying tickets as I go, but I wouldn’t even know where to start if I want to get a fair price on British trains.

http://www.thetrainline.com/

Seriously, its not rocket science.

[Mich the Tester]

http://www.thetrainline.com/

Seriously, its not rocket science.

I said a 'fair price'. I can turn up on the day at Amsterdam Centraal and buy a ticket to Berlin at a normal price, for much less than a flight. If I try to do that in the UK, say from London to Edinburgh, I'll be paying an astronomical fare.

[expat]

The problem is that the franchises are too short. Train companies have to anti-up a huge amount to get the franchise, then promise to reburbish stations etc.. and also make a profit.

Okay so they get a subsidy at first which reduces down to £0 (allegedly). But they then have to earn enough to pay their shareholders and enough to payout for another franchise in a few years.

They system is cocked. And there is very little competition.

The other factor is the dark side of Thatcherite privatisations: one reason for them was that it felt right to that government, but another was that it made money for the government. In the case of the railways, the franchise costs mean that the train companies are charging huge prices in effect because much of it is going to the Exchequer. Invented by Maggie, but no way was Gordo going to cancel it.

[expat]

I said a 'fair price'. I can turn up on the day at Amsterdam Centraal and buy a ticket to Berlin at a normal price, for much less than a flight. If I try to do that in the UK, say from London to Edinburgh, I'll be paying an astronomical fare.

That's because they are running it as a fee-paying service, whereas in the UK it is run as a business. Don't blame me, I didn't vote Tory.