Hurrah! Ireland!!! Thank you!

[Pickle2]

The EU institutions are not good. The agricultural subsidy (you couldnt pick a better example of a more incompetent, inefficient corrupt institution than the CAP) is an Orwellian concept used in the same way as a Nazi concentration camp commander would control his inmates.

I think CAP reform is an excellent example of where qualified majority voting would help!

[Lucy]

I dont wish to insult your intelligence Pickle but why on earth do you think that an institution that says that it exists for the general good is going to be true to its word????

He might like to read this?

They espoused such nonsense.

[Pickle2]

He might like to read this?

They espoused such nonsense.

It wasnt my quote as it goes. But for my tupence, I see the EU as an organisation that exsists for the mutual benefit of its member states and their citizens.

Are you saying that the PCG, for example, is a communist organisation for trying to do the same for contractors? Mal will be along in a minute, im sure he can clarify.

[Lucy]

It wasnt my quote as it goes. But for my tupence, I see the EU as an organisation that exsists for the mutual benefit of its member states and their citizens.

Are you saying that the PCG, for example, is a communist organisation for trying to do the same for contractors? Mal will be along in a minute, im sure he can clarify.

Joining the PCG is a choice.

For the umteenth time, EU reps are not elected or accountable, they haven't passed an audit in 14? years.

[DodgyAgent]

It wasnt my quote as it goes. But for my tupence, I see the EU as an organisation that exsists for the mutual benefit of its member states and their citizens.

Are you saying that the PCG, for example, is a communist organisation for trying to do the same for contractors? Mal will be along in a minute, im sure he can clarify.

The EU organisation is run for the benefit of those who control it, just like any other business or institution anywhere. It will only be run for the mutual benefit of its member states when its constitution, its structure, its lines of responsibility and accountability are constructed in such a way as to facilitate this.

At the moment it has no such accountability or responsibility. It has no democratic accountability and is answerable only to itself. People are not stupid, they voted for nos in the referendums of late because they had the intelligence to see behind the facade of cliches, weasel words and propoganda.

You can bet your last penny that if the EU does gain the power it is looking for it will only use the power to increase its power. It certainly will not use it to make Europe a better place to live for its citizens.

[DodgyAgent]

I think CAP reform is an excellent example of where qualified majority voting would help!

It will use majority voting to entrench the CAP and strengthen its position, not reform it simply because too many vested interests control it.

The PCG is an interesting contrast to the EU. The PCG is accountable to its members. Its members have a clear choice as to whether they wish to subscribe to the PCG or not. If the members dont like the PCG they can lobby it and leave it. The PCG is fully accountable and responsible. It has to deal first and foremost with its members wishes which is why it is a highly effective organisation that is entirely focussed on the job in hand.

[Pickle2]

If the members dont like the PCG they can lobby it and leave it. .

How is that different from the UKs membership of the EU?

[The Lone Gunman]

Elvis: I take it you are nto a UK national?
I say this because your attitude is familiar. I have worked with lots of other Europeans who seem to think that the UK is holding back the EU by voting no or holding onto an opt out.
The truth is that it is France, Germany, Spain and others who are holding back Europe. These nations have accepted all sorts of EU directives and then simply ignored them when it comes to implementing them. Many of these countries have similar constitutions and they vote as a block to maintain their own way of life at a cost to the EU which would be better off without them. CAP is a prime example. France wont let it go, nor will Germany because their farmers can not survive without subsidy. Fisheries policies are dictated by the needs of Spain and have all but destroyed the UK fishing industry. The UK has let this happen because it wants a strong Europe and expected the other players to join in, but with each passing year and each ignored directive it becomes more obvious that there are very few countries as commited to Europe as the UK.
A strong Europe working for all Europeans would be fantastic, but what we have falls far short of that. The UK would be better off out of it.
We need all countries to recognise that there will be change and that change may be painful for some, but unless some countries drop thier self interest agenda and some career politicians drop their political ideals then we are never going to see a working EU.

[DodgyAgent]

How is that different from the UKs membership of the EU?

The EU is only answerable to the governments of the nation states not the people. When the governments give away power to the EU then our ability to change government is pretty pointless when they have already given power to an institution over which we have no control.

So when the Irish, Dutch and French voted no on the constitution they were more than likely voting against the transfer of power that is going on. Allowing then the EU to make legislation with majority voting only makes matters worse because even if we change our government for a party that wants to stop the EU from its corrupt and incompetent ways, it cannot do anything on its own any more.

[Pickle2]

Dodgy. Enough, its friday. Im going to the pub.

I might have a nice (free of import duty) leffe blonde just for you. With a nice straight bannana on the side.