Oh Dear: Is there any other country in Europe where this would cause outrage ?

[Old Greg]

There is some simple pigeon holing going on, if someone argues that the solution to a problem is to mobilise their own lazy arse compatriots rather than import foreigners, with all the associated infrastructure difficulties that entails, that hardly makes them ‘pro white under class’. It raises an interesting idea if a little radical, why not encourage these people to work rather than spend their lives on long-term disability. It must cost a lot to keep that 3 million (disability and dole) or so out of work.

No , it was some very complex pigeon-holing. His (in my view, the only thing I agree with to an extent) view that people at the bottom of the pile should not be written off is, as you point out in your own way, perfectly reasonable in isolation. When you put it together with all the other views that I listed, it screams 'fascist'. I know of no other political ideology that espouses all of these in combination. The 1930s fascist dictatorships (Nazi Germany is the best example) did away with unemployment through large-scale public infrastructure schemes.

Now, people might think, these fascists don't seem so bad, they've got an idea or two to pull this country together. But what I said above was that these are the views they espouse. As Nick Griffin said (I paraphrase as I've already posted the ful quote twice) - we will not get to power banging on about Jews when it's Muslims who are in the media, and we need to get power. Fascists don't tend to stand for election on an 'Abolish democracy, invade neighbouring countries and kill the Jews' manifesto. So I humbly submit that their agenda lies far beyond what they say to get public support.

[Damp Cave]

No , it was some very complex pigeon-holing. His (in my view, the only thing I agree with to an extent) view that people at the bottom of the pile should not be written off is, as you point out in your own way, perfectly reasonable in isolation. When you put it together with all the other views that I listed, it screams 'fascist'. I know of no other political ideology that espouses all of these in combination. The 1930s fascist dictatorships (Nazi Germany is the best example) did away with unemployment through large-scale public infrastructure schemes.

Now, people might think, these fascists don't seem so bad, they've got an idea or two to pull this country together. But what I said above was that these are the views they espouse. As Nick Griffin said (I paraphrase as I've already posted the ful quote twice) - we will not get to power banging on about Jews when it's Muslims who are in the media, and we need to get power. Fascists don't tend to stand for election on an 'Abolish democracy, invade neighbouring countries and kill the Jews' manifesto. So I humbly submit that their agenda lies far beyond what they say to get public support.

As I alluded to, but perhaps should have been more forthright about, do you think it makes economic sense to continue to pay for our underclass types and pretend their replacements are doing so by engaging in menial employment. Indeed what do you think of Puss's idea of tokens and whether this may mobilse said lazy's.

Do you feel it makes sense to have two people using the countries infrastructure/resources, when they are so under strain, when a single one can do the necessary work with a little encouragement?

Do you subscribe to a holistic view of everything and that individual elements are unimportant?

[Old Greg]

I know a BTL'er who had their tenants (both claiming full disability benefits) decide the garden layout wasn't to their tastes, they dug up a concrete patio, re-landscaped, laid a new patio and built a shed. Unbelievable, if I'd have done a 10th of what they did I'd have put my back out and ended up in hospital.

A lot of the fault lies with doctors who will sign you off with anything, suffering from "stress" in particular is abused on a massive scale.

Stress and bad backs are the tricky ones. Part of the problem came with mass unemployment in the '80s when a load of 50 year old men were never all going to get jobs again and went onto incapacity benfit (or whatever it was called). Few extra quid in the pocket with no signing on, no skin off the doctor's nose, and winked at conveniently by the government as a way of keeping the unemployment figures down. NL have tried to unravel it but with their usual abject incompetence.

[Rantor]

Ok I was being tongue in cheek earlier.
I agree with you, what do you suggest?

The Clinton administration in the US introduced a lot of welfare restrictions that got abuse from both ends of the political spectrum.

Turns out that they were pretty effective in the end in terms of tackling the core groups relying on state support irrespective of the general economic climate.

However, I don't think it involved chain-gangs, internment, forced sterilisation etc. so it probably would fall into the liberal-PC-tinkering category on here.

If these pesky clients stop asking me to do something in retun for my daily fee I will dig out a link.

BTW - I really do think this whole CD thing is well fishy.

[Bagpuss]

Stress and bad backs are the tricky ones. Part of the problem came with mass unemployment in the '80s when a load of 50 year old men were never all going to get jobs again and went onto incapacity benfit (or whatever it was called). Few extra quid in the pocket with no signing on, no skin off the doctor's nose, and winked at conveniently by the government as a way of keeping the unemployment figures down. NL have tried to unravel it but with their usual abject incompetence.

My old man was in his late 40s in the 80s. Work dried up in the North West, so like a contractor he worked away from home. The work was available for those willing to compromise, infact he was well paid for the work he did. He was never out of work. All it required was effort on his part, mind you his ethics would not allow him to even consider going on benefits. To be on them at that time was considered a anathema to the honest working man, now it's considered a (one fingered salute) badge of honour.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Good points - however Fascism and Democracy are not mutally contradictory - Hitler was democratically elected.

Furthermore perhaps inevitalbly powerful democracries tend to 'evolve' to Fascism in order to maintain their economic status quo - eg foreign millitary adventures, imperialism - maintaining a climate of fear in the homeland - the creation of an internal enemy - all bear the hallmarks of todays most powerful democractic states.

[Damp Cave]

I would suggest without the 'national pride' bit of the definition that this government is as fascist as it gets.

[Bagpuss]

BTW - I really do think this whole CD thing is well fishy.

Perhaps Causus deli is a deliberate modification of Casus Belli, which possibly gives an insight into the thinking.

[sasguru]

I would suggest without the 'national pride' bit of the definition that this government is as fascist as it gets.

Clearly you haven't read anything about the 3rd Reich...
The biggest difference is this lot can, and will be, out next election.

[Old Greg]

As I alluded to, but perhaps should have been more forthright about, do you think it makes economic sense to continue to pay for our underclass types and pretend their replacements are doing so by engaging in menial employment. Indeed what do you think of Puss's idea of tokens and whether this may mobilse said lazy's.

Do you feel it makes sense to have two people using the countries infrastructure/resources, when they are so under strain, when a single one can do the necessary work with a little encouragement?

Do you subscribe to a holistic view of everything and that individual elements are unimportant?

Fair enouch, I think the whole in CD's case is important, because it (in my view) betrays him as a fascist, and I think fascists are dangerous.

But you ask what I think (bang goes the rest of the morning's work):

I think Eastern European immigration has brought in a young willing educated workforce, that are prepared to work hard in jobs that are relatively menial and that in our eyes pay poorly. On the other side there is a group of British citizens (of all races, I expect) who have a poor employment record, low skills and education, in some cases various illnesses/conditions that wouldn't actually stop them working. People focus on their ability to work (are they really ill, or really so ill that they can't work) and their willingness to work - both important points. But I think there is a third point which is their employability. Most people here run small businesses (ahem...) so put yourself in the position of an employer:

1. You're expanding and want to hire a van driver to make deliveries. Do you hire the bright young Polish lad (with good English) or the long-term unemployed British citizen (let's pretend he's made it to the interview), who can barely read the list of drop-off points you've given him and who's had a bit of a dodgy back but should be OK for work? No-brainer, I suggest.

2. Take the immigration out of the picture. There is no Polish lad. You've just got long-term unemployed guy. I suggest you're not going to employ him because you know it's not going to work out. You keep looking.

So, I don't think that the causes of the problem are quite as simple as it's been portrayed.

What to do about it? Well, I don't think punitive measures are any good if they are unemployable. It won't make them suddenly get jobs, becuase who will employ them? I think they need skills. I would put in an education scheme - literacy, numeracy, practical skills for jobs. People might even get a reference for a job from it. And for those who like to be punitive - if I don't turn up to work, I lose a day's pay, so you could apply that. But those who genuinely cannot work through illness and disability, let's leave them be to lead their lives in dignity (and I have no idea how to tell the difference between genuine and non-genuine).