Agency Opt Out lies

[tractor]

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This seems to be a regular story on here. We should all know by now that at best opting out is a minor pointer towards being outside IR35 and like many "minor pointers" the converse is not necessarily true; not opting out is not a pointer towards being inside.

Like mal said, I believe the PCG recommend considering opting out if it can be used to negotiate a better contract. I've only done two contracts through an agency in the last 5 years; one was forced as my client had a preferred suppliers list and the other time I insisted on not opting out I ended up being called by the agency's financial director (!) to discuss the merits of me opting out. I honestly can't remember if I gave in or not in the end.

In short, if you want to stay opted in, I wouldn't mention it up front. I'd wait until you've got a decent IR35-friendly contract in your hands (it might even have a file name like "Agency Contract - Opted Out") and once you've had it reviewed and are happy, tell the agency that you aren't opting out. They'll throw their toys out of the pram and try and get you to sign a different contract. At this point you tell them you're quite happy with the contract they've already been sent, having taken the time and expense to have it professionally reviewed and are ready to start. Ideally you'll tell them this right before the contract starts. Its up to them if they want to jeopardise things over the opt out. Unfortunately, this one wants his cake and to eat it - so there are several changes to the contract needed, some that relate to Opting Out and some that do not.

As Wanderer said: don't try and engage in a conversation about IR35 with them. Its none of their concern and they don't know what they are on about anyway.

Needless to say I don't envy all of you who have to deal with agencies on a regular basis and thank goodness for the PCG and their ready to go consultancy contracts!

Lots of similar stories here:
http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...-2003-act.html

Thanks. I really do understand all this. I have dealt with the current issue. The agent can, as always like it or get stuffed. If he walks away, he will be the second this year. I could not care less about an agent.

I simply want a reference to the advice that people like Mal are repeating so that I can be better armed in the future. I have trawled through BIS and HMRC, ContractorUK and the web for hours and I cannot find any reference to the BIS advice that Mal states is there. I believe he is repeating an urban myth. Unfortunately, this adds to the U and D part of the FUD that agencies and the government are quite capable of producing themselves. They don't need any help from us.

So, until someone actually points us to a definitive reference, I shall give up trying and treat it as rumour.

[psychocandy]

Hmm. Cant see it happening.

Agency: Ok you need to opt out.
Contractor: Dont really want to. Tell you what £10 extra/day and you're on.
Agency: OK

Not going to happen ever.

[TestMangler]

Hmm. Cant see it happening.

Agency: Ok you need to opt out.
Contractor: Dont really want to. Tell you what £10 extra/day and you're on.
Agency: OK

Not going to happen ever.

What part of the O/P's plea for FACTS did you not understand ?

[tractor]

...

What part of the O/P's plea for FACTS did you not understand ?

Sigggggggggggggh of relief. Thank you.

You are clearly at the forefront of your field

[TestMangler]

Sigggggggggggggh of relief. Thank you.

You are clearly at the forefront of your field

I am outstanding in my field. All five acres of it !!

I too would like to see the written evidence you seek, as I always have the same agency argument as you're currently having and see the same excuses. I think I may have actually asked a similar question 3 years back which resulted in the same bulltulip and dross opinions being aired.

I bid you good fortune in your quest for fact among regulation

[tractor]

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I am outstanding in my field. All five acres of it !!

I too would like to see the written evidence you seek, as I always have the same agency argument as you're currently having and see the same excuses. I think I may have actually asked a similar question 3 years back which resulted in the same bulltulip and dross opinions being aired.

I bid you good fortune in your quest for fact among regulation

Unfortunately, it seems many contractors are becoming as bad as the agents for repeating this stuff from the opposite side of the fence. Which is why I don't want to quote any of it unless I've heard it from the horse's mouth.

[tractor]

And the upshot is....

Following a couple days negotiation over contract terms, it becomes obvious that the moron MD at the agency is so dead against me not opting out and knowing (because I hit him over the head with it several times) that he cannot force or induce me to opt out, tells the client that if they engage myco, they will be responsible for holidays and other liabilities , they believe him and change the offer to 6mths fixed term PAYE.

Just LOL. I walked away from it.

Of course, I can prove none of it. Given that over the last couple of days, the guy has proven to be a lying hyena, I reckon I had a lucky escape.

Lucky I didn't cancel the other interviews really!

[malvolio]

Unfortunately, it seems many contractors are becoming as bad as the agents for repeating this stuff from the opposite side of the fence. Which is why I don't want to quote any of it unless I've heard it from the horse's mouth.

Most if not all of it is in the Guide I quoted. Also I heard it originally from being in the same room as the people at PCG who were negotiating the opt out at the time, and subsequent discussions about the subject at various meetings over the years. I don't believe there is a written document of the whole intention; as I said earlier, the Regs are BIS's concern and IR35 is HMRC's: neither has to take any notice of the other. As you have now discovered, it's idiot agencies that have created the "urban myth" by being so utterly inept that they don't know the rules governing their own business.

Anyway, sounds like a lucky escape. Who are these morons anyway?

[tractor]

..

Most if not all of it is in the Guide I quoted. Also I heard it originally from being in the same room as the people at PCG who were negotiating the opt out at the time, and subsequent discussions about the subject at various meetings over the years. I don't believe there is a written document of the whole intention; as I said earlier, the Regs are BIS's concern and IR35 is HMRC's: neither has to take any notice of the other. As you have now discovered, it's idiot agencies that have created the "urban myth" by being so utterly inept that they don't know the rules governing their own business.

Anyway, sounds like a lucky escape. Who are these morons anyway?

Then, with respect no one should quote it as fact.

The dangerous thing is though, that agents can get away with this simply by FUDding HR depts who are usually as clueless as agents and avoiding the risks that the agent associates with not opting out. I can see this as a big issue looming for all of us - it's the second time in 2 months this has happened to me, once over an extension - I walked from that too. So, effectively there is abut £90k revenue gone, but I am not going to sign a contract that has me relinquishing rights to the extent that myco takes ALL financial risks and the agent takes none but still gets all the fees potentially.

Either PM me or search for who I have been asking about in the last week.

[craig1]

The polite and also blunt way to finish it is to write a nice letter to the client manager saying essentially "Sorry I didn't get the chance to work for your outstanding company as a contractor, maybe we can sort something out for a future role. Please note that I won't be coming through agency xxxx though as they do not understand the role of a contractor in the modern legislative environment and tried to get me to sign away all my rights against them."

Odds are that it'll do you no good but it might get a bit of a dialogue going about the agency/client relationship!