Managed service type contract via agency?

[7specialgems]

IMO I think it all unravels when you consider who drafted the contract.

If it was a proper managed service contract, I would expect the Supplier to be the party who is in the box seat to draft and agree the contract and do all the leg work.

Or at least that's what I would insist on as the supplier.

Otherwise I'd be nervous about the whole thing being Staff Augmentation in disguise and how my milestones can be measured as met so I get paid (when you take into account the same arrangement with other suppliers and who is reponsible for what)

But then IANAL

[SteelyDan]

Did you note my earlier comment? It's only outside IR35 if the agency is supplying resources for a specific project with a known deliverable...

Yes I did, thanks, the specific programme (programme X to deliver something which I can't mention, but it's IT related) is the overarching deliverable which has a run time of c.18 months, as far as I'm aware. All staff are contractors, oddly, not sure how many but quite a few. The agency are stating the contract is out of IR35, and approved by HMG, as I mentioned earlier. Spoke with a couple who had their contracts checked (QDOS I think) & all seems above board. Some didn't bother to get their contracts checked however...I was thinking of getting an email from said agency to state categorically that the role, programme, is absolutely outside of IR35. Not got it yet, but it might be the case that this is mentioned in the contract. I'll enquire.

[malvolio]

I've decided to give it a shot so I'll see how things pan out. If it turns out to be a 'crock' then I'll move on.
Potential long term programme, deemed as outside IR35 so next years off-payroll won't impact; the work seems good, so are rates, location could be better but I can live with it as been there before.
On the face of it, should be a winner, especially as the market ain't great at the moment.

Did you note my earlier comment? It's only outside IR35 if the agency is supplying resources for a specific project with a known deliverable...

[SteelyDan]

I've decided to give it a shot so I'll see how things pan out. If it turns out to be a 'crock' then I'll move on.
Potential long term programme, deemed as outside IR35 so next years off-payroll won't impact; the work seems good, so are rates, location could be better but I can live with it as been there before.
On the face of it, should be a winner, especially as the market ain't great at the moment.

[SteelyDan]

Pretty much this^^^^^^

I'd do fixed price work to payment milestones, but only if I had a lot of control. If the MSP involved is just a body shop, which it sounds like, and the 'deliverables' are just a sham I'd be very nervous.
T&M without signed timesheets is risky as well.

The key things to me are
- how do you prove you've delivered? - PM verifies work has been done - meeting/evidence meeting with me at appropriate juncture, PM confirms to Prog Manager
- how do they pay? Is it T&M or fixed price per deliverable? - No, there's a contractual day rate which I've agreed with agency which runs just like a normal contract - i.e. 21 days in month = 21 days pay: get deliverables signed off/agreed as above>submit invoice end of month>cash hits bank 3 days later
- how do you get paid for work that has taken longer to deliver due to client delays? - if mitigating circumstances, milestone/deliverables can be deferred & don't affect the payment
- if the agency is a large one, but is now doing 'MSP', is the 'line manager' (for want of a better term) the end client, or the agency?'line manager' is prog manager (contractor)who ultimately reports to Board level

Comments against yours. Agency seems to sit between team of contractors & end client as far as I could make out...

[Lance]

I tend to put on the services sheet that I'll 'contribute' to a given project or task. Not deliver it - way too risky!

that's great if you're T&M.

Not much use if the deliverable is sh1te and nobody gets paid, no matter the quality of your contribution.

[PerfectStorm]

I tend to put on the services sheet that I'll 'contribute' to a given project or task. Not deliver it - way too risky!

[SteelyDan]

Pretty much this^^^^^^

I'd do fixed price work to payment milestones, but only if I had a lot of control. If the MSP involved is just a body shop, which it sounds like, and the 'deliverables' are just a sham I'd be very nervous.
T&M without signed timesheets is risky as well.

The key things to me are
- how do you prove you've delivered?
- how do they pay? Is it T&M or fixed price per deliverable?
- how do you get paid for work that has taken longer to deliver due to client delays?
- if the agency is a large one, but is now doing 'MSP', is the 'line manager' (for want of a better term) the end client, or the agency?

Good points, I'll find out this week. Thanks.

[SteelyDan]

It is the only way under the PS rules HMRC will recognise an engagement as being potentially outside IR35. IF you are supplied as part of an outsource agreement with a third party to deliver a set piece of work or a defined element of it, then you may be outside IR35. Yes I think this is the one

The question is, does the agency have a contract to deliver a set piece of work? I'll find out this week when I meet them


Explore exactly what the agency is offering and what they are being paid for. Your deliverables-based approach is damn all use if all they are doing is body shopping under another name. Noted

Comments against yours.

[Lance]

That's a hell no from me. 95% of failure to meet deadlines has been due to the client ******* things up, lack of resource, direction, bad specs, delays in approval etc.

Pretty much this^^^^^^

I'd do fixed price work to payment milestones, but only if I had a lot of control. If the MSP involved is just a body shop, which it sounds like, and the 'deliverables' are just a sham I'd be very nervous.
T&M without signed timesheets is risky as well.

The key things to me are
- how do you prove you've delivered?
- how do they pay? Is it T&M or fixed price per deliverable?
- how do you get paid for work that has taken longer to deliver due to client delays?
- if the agency is a large one, but is now doing 'MSP', is the 'line manager' (for want of a better term) the end client, or the agency?