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That old chestnut - contractors and oncall

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    #21
    Originally posted by TonyF View Post
    If all it means is being on the end of the phone every so often in extreme circumstances, then it's free.

    If it means more than that then agree the rate with the client. Time off in lieu is for permanent employees - if I want to take time off, I will take time off when I want it. Taht might be in the middle of teh contract or it might be at the end and before the next one, but it's my choice when I take it thanks.

    Pay me for the work I do and I'll deal with the taking breaks at my convenience not theirs.
    I had this exact discussion with more than one client.

    I put it to them that 'you're asking me to work for free and then, later, fraudulently invoice for work that wasn't done in that time frame. What if you choose not to pay the later work? How can I prevent you refusing to pay later? So no. No pay, no work.'
    See You Next Tuesday

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      #22
      I would only consider on-call for ClientCo that call outs are rare, like once a week or something. I have been asked for on-call twice in the last 6 contracts. In one case ClientCo was politely discouraged by my terms, in the other they were happy to accept.

      Standby is paid - 25% of my rate
      Call out is paid - 150% of my rate by the hour for each started hour.
      If your budget can't afford it I accept accumulated TOIL at the same rates based on 8h day - meaning that if my rate is £500 and I accumulate £500 billable on-call I get to bill one day that would otherwise be time off for me for holiday or whatever.

      I have done unpaid "on-call" for one client when during a critical stage of the project they asked me if the BAU teams making the out of hours changes can reach me for assistance if something goes wrong with the changes that i wrote and in that case I did it for free for couple of weeks. Only got 1 call which lasted like 10min and the client was over the moon.

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        #23
        Originally posted by psychocandy View Post
        Or not being able to afford it?
        They could afford to pay you to go on holiday at critical times, like a site-wide keyboard upgrade.

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          #24
          Originally posted by Lance View Post
          I had this exact discussion with more than one client.

          I put it to them that 'you're asking me to work for free and then, later, fraudulently invoice for work that wasn't done in that time frame. What if you choose not to pay the later work? How can I prevent you refusing to pay later? So no. No pay, no work.'
          Agreed its not ideal - and you've got to trust the client.
          Rhyddid i lofnod psychocandy!!!!

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            #25
            Originally posted by Old Greg View Post
            They could afford to pay you to go on holiday at critical times, like a site-wide keyboard upgrade.
            The mouse upgrade was particularly tough....
            Rhyddid i lofnod psychocandy!!!!

            Comment


              #26
              Originally posted by sal View Post
              I would only consider on-call for ClientCo that call outs are rare, like once a week or something. I have been asked for on-call twice in the last 6 contracts. In one case ClientCo was politely discouraged by my terms, in the other they were happy to accept.

              Standby is paid - 25% of my rate
              Call out is paid - 150% of my rate by the hour for each started hour.
              If your budget can't afford it I accept accumulated TOIL at the same rates based on 8h day - meaning that if my rate is £500 and I accumulate £500 billable on-call I get to bill one day that would otherwise be time off for me for holiday or whatever.

              I have done unpaid "on-call" for one client when during a critical stage of the project they asked me if the BAU teams making the out of hours changes can reach me for assistance if something goes wrong with the changes that i wrote and in that case I did it for free for couple of weeks. Only got 1 call which lasted like 10min and the client was over the moon.
              Yes call out frequency and expectations make a huge difference. If you get called all the time and they expect you to drop everything then its different.

              Current client - never been called. Even if you get called, you've got remote access and they are fairly laid back anyway. My mrs, as a nurse, works shifts so I've got the kids at times. If on call expectations were I had to come to site then it would affect my wifes employment so I would charge a LOT more. As it is, they know if they call me, I can probably login remotely, but anything else including coming to site is best efforts only (until wife gets home from her shift).

              As such, its easy, I've got a few days TOIL out of it.....
              Rhyddid i lofnod psychocandy!!!!

              Comment


                #27
                Originally posted by sal View Post
                I would only consider on-call for ClientCo that call outs are rare, like once a week or something. I have been asked for on-call twice in the last 6 contracts. In one case ClientCo was politely discouraged by my terms, in the other they were happy to accept.

                Standby is paid - 25% of my rate
                Call out is paid - 150% of my rate by the hour for each started hour.
                If your budget can't afford it I accept accumulated TOIL at the same rates based on 8h day - meaning that if my rate is £500 and I accumulate £500 billable on-call I get to bill one day that would otherwise be time off for me for holiday or whatever.

                I have done unpaid "on-call" for one client when during a critical stage of the project they asked me if the BAU teams making the out of hours changes can reach me for assistance if something goes wrong with the changes that i wrote and in that case I did it for free for couple of weeks. Only got 1 call which lasted like 10min and the client was over the moon.
                Depends on the client. Fair play for getting them to agree to that though.

                Im in the public sector, so there is no way in a million years they are going to effectively pay 1/2 days rate for overnight oncall (or 1.5 days for weekend day). Bloody hell that's 5.5 days for one weeks on-call! Even if the manager wanted to - you can guarantee someone further up the monkey tree would block that!

                They'd just say "umm no thanks then" and walk into the distance mumbling about "bloody contractors". Im sure they'd not be mega funny and drop me or anything like that but it'd be a slight notch in our relationship.

                Or I can think, "hmm its piss easy, creates a good impressions, and its nice to have a few extra days at least"

                Not ideal as I've said a million times and depends on the client. I had a mate who racked up 45 days TOIL at one client, then the contract ended suddenly. Chances or him getting paid for this TOIL were no hope and bob hope. NEVER do this.
                Rhyddid i lofnod psychocandy!!!!

                Comment


                  #28
                  Originally posted by psychocandy View Post
                  They'd just say "umm no thanks then" and walk into the distance mumbling about "bloody contractors". Im sure they'd not be mega funny and drop me or anything like that but it'd be a slight notch in our relationship.

                  Or I can think, "hmm its piss easy, creates a good impressions, and its nice to have a few extra days at least"

                  Not ideal as I've said a million times and depends on the client. I had a mate who racked up 45 days TOIL at one client, then the contract ended suddenly. Chances or him getting paid for this TOIL were no hope and bob hope. NEVER do this.
                  I always enquire about expectations for on-call/out of hours work during the interview. If there is an expectation for a great deal of it I ask about how it's compensated. If what is on the table doesn't suits me - I just don't take the role. If the expectations/requirements change mid contract, that's a reason for renegotiation if CleintCo is unhappy with my terms there is nothing I can do about it. Not going to bend over and take it like a permie.

                  Your mate was naive to say the least to rack up 45 days "TOIL" as a contractor

                  Never in a million years would I agree to on-call without remote access.

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Originally posted by WTFH View Post
                    Looking at many of Billy's posts, he seems to be unlucky and have the worst clients (or always assumes that they are bad, even if they are not)
                    Not really. I've had some awful clients, true. As I'm sure we all have. It's largely human nature after all to try to exploit that which is free.

                    That said, though, I've also had (and continue to have) some brilliant clients. The ones I've done work for and happily go back to again and again (and they're happy to have me back).

                    I think this is the crux of the whole thing. Yes, there will be clients who will seek to exploit you - you treat them how they treat you. But then there's also clients who will respect you and your time, and treat you like a human being. Again, you treat them how they treat you.

                    Personally, for my own set of brilliant clients, I'm more than happy to work extra hours and generally go "above and beyond the call of duty" for them when it's required. I do this because I know they don't expect it, they're exceptionally grateful, and they will reciprocate when the shoe is on the other foot.

                    In short, when there's mutual respect and a healthy working relationship, do extra for your client. When that's missing, however, then don't.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Originally posted by WordIsBond View Post
                      As a businessman, you're building relationships that will lead to further business. Sometimes, you go the extra mile to do that. There's more than one way to "think like a business." I have multiple people working for me and still have more than I can do sometimes, and my time has gotten absurdly expensive. I wouldn't pay myself what these people are willing to pay, but I've built relationships where they highly value what I bring to the table, so they pay.

                      I can afford to give a half hour here or there if it builds those kinds of relationships. Something you might want to consider in some cases.
                      I don't disagree with this, however consider:

                      If giving an exploitative client a few extra hours of your time will "build a business relationship", are you sure that you actually want that business relationship and additional future work from such a client?

                      Maybe, if you're desperate for work and don't mind (or can at least tolerate) being exploited and having unreasonable expectation imposed upon you. However, if you're not so desperate for work and can afford to wait until a better opportunity comes along then I, personally, wouldn't want that relationship and work from an abusive client.

                      I suppose each individual has to make their own decisions on this.

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