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Contract is unnecessary?

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    Contract is unnecessary?

    A response on a different thread from someone who spends a lot of time worrying about the future of contracting, indicated that not matter what is written in a contract, the actual working practices and conditions will trump this. This obviously leads to the question why do we even bother going through the faff of getting a contract in writing and then mithering about/paying some suit to review the contract? Surely it's now irrelevant and a layer of misdirection/false sense of security for folks working in this way, I.e not working for the end client as an employee?

    What would Gideons' argument be? When I get the blokes to come and do my garden we don't have contracts that need reviewing and amending and signing. I give him the fifty quid simple.

    #2
    Can I politely suggest "Thread is unnecessary" as a new title?

    Are you suggesting that the primary purpose of a contract is to demonstrate your IR35 position? Even if IR35 were the motivation for having a written contract, which it clearly isn't, do you think you'd be strengthening or weakening your position by having no written evidence of the contractual terms that govern your working practices?

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by jamesbrown View Post
      Can I politely suggest "Thread is unnecessary" as a new title?

      Are you suggesting that the primary purpose of a contract is to demonstrate your IR35 position? Even if IR35 were the motivation for having a written contract, which it clearly isn't, do you think you'd be strengthening or weakening your position by having no written evidence of the contractual terms that govern your working practices?
      It is obviously a post to provoke a conversation and debate on the dance we all appear consumed with, and it would also appear we piss our hard earned up the wall paying suits to review for the purposes of the clause when as indicated, it doesn't count for shiite?

      Instead of mithering and asking for advice on a forum, why don't we just read the bottom line where it says we'll get 400 +vat or whatever and we are expected to deliver stuff between working hours?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by OnceStonedRose View Post
        It is obviously a post to provoke a conversation and debate on the dance we all appear consumed with, and it would also appear we piss our hard earned up the wall paying suits to review for the purposes of the clause when as indicated, it doesn't count for shiite?

        Instead of mithering and asking for advice on a forum, why don't we just read the bottom line where it says we'll get 400 +vat or whatever and we are expected to deliver stuff between working hours?
        Perhaps because some of us actually care about the commercial arrangements and are at risk of losing everything if we don't make sure they're sensible. I've always said that an IR35 review is only one part of a legal review, and not the most important part. You don't have to work with a verbose contract. If the deliverable is straightforward and you have a standard set of T&C, by all means just use a PO with your T&C attached (or with their T&C). If you don't have any written contract whatsoever, I'd suggest that you're not satisfying your statutory obligation to keep proper books and records. Also, to state the obvious, if you're in a BOS contract role, it won't help the rapid or successful conclusion of an IR35 case if you don't have a contract that reflects your working practices.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by jamesbrown View Post
          Perhaps because some of us actually care about the commercial arrangements and are at risk of losing everything if we don't make sure they're sensible. I've always said that an IR35 review is only one part of a legal review, and not the most important part. You don't have to work with a verbose contract. If the deliverable is straightforward and you have a standard set of T&C, by all means just use a PO with your T&C attached (or with their T&C). If you don't have any written contract whatsoever, I'd suggest that you're not satisfying your statutory obligation to keep proper books and records. Also, to state the obvious, if you're in a BOS contract role, it won't help the rapid or successful conclusion of an IR35 case if you don't have a contract that reflects your working practices.
          Spot on. IR35 is only one element. There are many other elements to consider contractually when operating a business.

          It seems judging by the number of posts on the matter that there are many individuals that think they only need an IR35 compliant contract.

          No other business considerations appear to be made by the individuals which raises the question on whether they are actually running a business.

          I wonder how many of them know there legal obligations?

          I personally think the op should let sleeping dogs lie. He has been given some valuable advice, albeit NLUK has a certain way of putting things, and should take everything onboard and go read up not just on IR35.

          Comment


            #6
            Contract is unnecessary?

            The advice NLUK was giving you was that yes contracts are important. You should understand and agree with every clause in the contract. Many people come to this forum with contractual issues that could have been avoided. Remember the contract is between Your Co and Agency and not with the End Client.

            He was quite right to advise that in terms of IR35 working practices are important as if ever investigated by HMRC the contract is only one part of the investigation. The other part will be looking at your working practices to establish whether it is a true reflection of the contract and a business relationship.

            I personally think you should put the attitude away and thank those that took their time to advise as you never know you may need there advice again in the future. Hopefully not.
            Last edited by sociopath; 19 December 2015, 17:24.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by OnceStonedRose View Post
              A response on a different thread from someone who spends a lot of time worrying about the future of contracting, indicated that not matter what is written in a contract, the actual working practices and conditions will trump this. This obviously leads to the question why do we even bother going through the faff of getting a contract in writing and then mithering about/paying some suit to review the contract? Surely it's now irrelevant and a layer of misdirection/false sense of security for folks working in this way, I.e not working for the end client as an employee?

              What would Gideons' argument be? When I get the blokes to come and do my garden we don't have contracts that need reviewing and amending and signing. I give him the fifty quid simple.
              Its because hmrc like to go both ways. To outwit HMRC, people started having contracts reviewed then changed tomake the contract outside of their clutches.

              Seeing they were on a losing streak, HMRC then said 'ah well, its not just the wording of the contract, its the working practices.'

              Oh and besides that, client's like to have a contract they can point to.
              Last edited by BolshieBastard; 19 December 2015, 15:27.
              I couldn't give two fornicators! Yes, really!

              Comment


                #8
                A contract covers lots of terms including but not limited to working hours, location of work, security requirements, agreement to comply with bribery act, data protection, IP ownership, what countries the agency can send your company and personal data to, whether the agency can sell your company and personal data, insurance liability limits, description of services provided, payment conditions,......

                Even if you are an employee by law you should have a written statement of work, so why do you think a business should not have one?
                "You’re just a bad memory who doesn’t know when to go away" JR

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by sociopath View Post
                  I personally think you should put the attitude away and thank those that took their time to advise as you never know you may need there advice again in the future. Hopefully not.
                  Already have thanked those who offered advice on other thread. Thanks for this advice as well.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    My honest opinion, these contracts are scare tactics. When reading the IR35 guidelines on this site, they mentions things about if you hired a plumber would you do this and that.... umm, I dont sign a contract with my plumber! Verbal agreements hold up in court, and as long as you excercise your agreement that everybody else in the office sees this, that is your proof.

                    Example:
                    I had a direct employment contract. I went in for a chat with CEO and Head developer. Very nice bunch of people. I said I would like x per day, and work 4/5 days remotely. Shook hands, gave them half a page with with my rate and simple IR35 guff, we signed it and worked for them 12 months. When I came in, I was there 0730AM as soon as the shutters opened. I left 1530/1600 - So that all permies saw me exercising my contractor rights. I took lunch at random times, for random durations, sometimes I even left 3/4 day and worked the rest from home. I got the job done. I think the agencies complicate things so badly sometimes, like next example.

                    Now I work for global company Y at head office, with a ton of paper work before hand, signt this, sign that, send us this and that, turn around three times and poke your nose. Now I cant use my own monitors, my own excellent dev machine that is all up to date, sterlised and burning a hole in the table, I was eyeballed for using my own keyboard !!! Things like free drinks and canteen are not such a big problem with other contractors, they brew up for everybody like i used to do when I was a permie surfing facebook. No thanks, i got my own coffee, sugar and milk. I will brew up for myself when I want a brew and I will deal with my own lunches (I am supposed to take 45 minute lunches.. what? Straight away I told them, I like 30 minute lunches, on a good day I only need 15 minutes, thanks). Then they said I must take lunch at 1200, again, I said sometimes I need to take lunch at other times..

                    I do my work very well and there is only one or two people I need to impress, and those are the ones signing my timesheets and making sure HR pays my cheques for the excellent work I do and then everything makes sense.I want other permies and contractors to tell people what a "douche" I am, not taking lunch the same time as others, brining his own beverages into work, and doing random things like asking if he can bring in his companies third moniotor because he needs it to "work" better. They doing me a favour.

                    I also have a 4 week notice period.. whaaat? OK, whatever, that can be challenged in court so easily if push comes to shove. I dont keep my plumber hanging around for 4 weeks incase my other tap leaks,, get my drift?

                    Unfortunately 90% of the times the contracts are 0% relating to what is going on at the offices. No wonder HMRC are cracking down on small 1 man companies that are "outside IR35" this year and slapping 7% dividend TAX on us.

                    End of day, the longer the contract the more loopholes there are but ultimately, but you always needs some written proof of your terms and a signature. its down to YOUR attitude at the client and how people talk about you. I may come across as doing douche bag things, but those are key to separating me from them. I am actually a nice guy and the right people appreciate that.
                    If the client is a douche and not paying you or something... then you need to get out.

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