How do you get the working conditions/practices you want?

[Sparky1]

Hi All,

I'm still fairly new to contracting and I've spent a lot of time reading old posts on CUK to try and get upto speed on how to be/act as a contractor, IR35, providing a service etc.

One thing I'm struggling to figure out is when you get a contract with a client, how on earth do you manage to get them to agree to the working practices you require (when you are a LTD and providing a service to the client).

A lot of clients think contractors are just additional staff and don't understand you are coming in to 'provide a service' and I get the impression a lot of clients don't want to give contractors the flexible working practices required (as part of being outside IR35) - their permys wouldn't be happy, and the client won't have enough control over you? Can't see them agreeing to substitutions either.

How do you deal with this? I know you can ask for various points to be added/removed from contracts but in terms of the real working practices - do you just tell them how you need to work even before you start (and walk if they don't agree) or try to adjust things once you have worked with them for a while?

If you negotiate hard on the key points, do you you this at job offer stage? How successful have you been?

Thanks

S

[kaiser78]

Hi All,

I'm still fairly new to contracting and I've spent a lot of time reading old posts on CUK to try and get upto speed on how to be/act as a contractor, IR35, providing a service etc.

One thing I'm struggling to figure out is when you get a contract with a client, how on earth do you manage to get them to agree to the working practices you require (when you are a LTD and providing a service to the client).

A lot of clients think contractors are just additional staff and don't understand you are coming in to 'provide a service' and I get the impression a lot of clients don't want to give contractors the flexible working practices required (as part of being outside IR35) - their permys wouldn't be happy, and the client won't have enough control over you? Can't see them agreeing to substitutions either.

How do you deal with this? I know you can ask for various points to be added/removed from contracts but in terms of the real working practices - do you just tell them how you need to work even before you start (and walk if they don't agree) or try to adjust things once you have worked with them for a while?

If you negotiate hard on the key points, do you you this at job offer stage? How successful have you been?

Thanks

S

Essentially secure the role first, by that make sure you have an offer on the table. Then stand your ground for what you want (be realistic). If you need the role negotiate. If you don't and are not happy with the offer then decline. Remember by the point of the role being offered, the agent is keen for you to accept so get them onside as part of the negotiation.

[vwdan]

What do you do and what kind of conditions are you trying to secure? I ask because I think this varies a bit depending on the kind of roles you're going for - mine are all very consultancy-like by default and I imagine it's MUCH tougher if you're expected to embed within an established team of, say, programmers.

[SueEllen]

How do you deal with this? I know you can ask for various points to be added/removed from contracts but in terms of the real working practices - do you just tell them how you need to work even before you start (and walk if they don't agree) or try to adjust things once you have worked with them for a while?

If you negotiate hard on the key points, do you you this at job offer stage? How successful have you been?

Thanks

S

1. Talk to the client at interview about how they work. Some companies are very proud of their flexible working practises so will bring this up.

2. Find out if the client is use to using contractors at interview. Clients who are use to dealing with contractors will indicate to you if it's OK to leave early on Friday and come in later on Monday if you require it. Others will say no way you have to be here between x and y time. I don't take the second type of contracts as I don't need micromanagement.

The agent often doesn't have clue about these types of arrangements and will just give you their standard contract. Some standard contracts will say you can work anywhere within reason however if the client doesn't agree or their infrastructure isn't set up for it then you can't.

[jmo21]

Essentially secure the role first, by that make sure you have an offer on the table. Then stand your ground for what you want (be realistic). If you need the role negotiate. If you don't and are not happy with the offer then decline. Remember by the point of the role being offered, the agent is keen for you to accept so get them onside as part of the negotiation.

Well that's all well and good from a contract point of view, and you should always make sure your contract works for you, specifically for IR35.

But I think what the OP should really worry about is once you are on site. As we all know, the contract is the first step, but the most important part is your actual working practices.

And if the client steams on ahead treating you like the permies in their team, then you have a problem.

It's then up to you to weigh the risk. Is it worth bringing it up with the client? They don't care about IR35, and often don't even know what IR35 is. The agent? The only reason they will care or begin to think about doing anything is if you tell them you are quitting.

[Murder1]

It's then up to you to weigh the risk. Is it worth bringing it up with the client? They don't care about IR35, and often don't even know what IR35 is. The agent? The only reason they will care or begin to think about doing anything is if you tell them you are quitting.

Can someone better placed advise if the agent and/or client become liable for holiday/sick days pension contributions etc should a contractor be caught by IR35. I was always under the impression that a client (i.e. the company as a whole and not just the person you report into) doesn't want a contractor to be caught by IR35 just as much as the contractor for this very reason (this could be some urban myth that I've heard banded about).

[jmo21]

Can someone better placed advise if the agent and/or client become liable for holiday/sick days pension contributions etc should a contractor be caught by IR35. I was always under the impression that a client (i.e. the company as a whole and not just the person you report into) doesn't want a contractor to be caught by IR35 just as much as the contractor for this very reason (this could be some urban myth that I've heard banded about).

They certainly don't just automatically become liable for holidays/sick days.

And the client is is at arms length when there is an agency as an intermediary anyway.

You are right to mention the distinction between the client company as a whole, and the end client boss person who treats you like one of his permie's which is what I was talking about.

The contract may be fine, but it is how pointy haired boss treats you.

Another factor to consider is that as soon as you start complaining about working practices, refusing to do things because of IR35 etc, then you'll probably find yourself out the door anyway for being a pain in the backside.

[kevpuk]

Another factor to consider is that as soon as you start complaining about working practices, refusing to do things because of IR35 etc, then you'll probably find yourself out the door anyway for being a pain in the backside.

So much depends on the relationship with the Client, and how you want things to be.
For example, the team I am working with at ClientCo recently had a 2-day offsite. I was reluctant to be involved for a variety of reasons, not least because of the whole permie/contractor thing as well as no interest in Giant Jenga and so on. Spoke to my boss, and explained that I could not - in all good conscience - invoice for such time, and hence was planning to either not bill for the 2 days (and not work!) or to carry on from home/office as he preferred. We had a decent chat about this, he understood my point of view and respected my integrity. We agreed that I would attend, as there actually was a fair bit of genuine work content, and then duck out of whatever activities etc. I was not comfortable being involved in, billing them accordingly.
To cut a long story short, my requirements were met, ClientCo felt I was a team-player (high-five!) and all were merry. Moral of the story is communication! In my case, I actually came out smelling of roses, as I had been quite honest about not wanting to bill for a jolly, and kudos gained to boot!

[Murder1]

So much depends on the relationship with the Client, and how you want things to be.
For example, the team I am working with at ClientCo recently had a 2-day offsite. I was reluctant to be involved for a variety of reasons, not least because of the whole permie/contractor thing as well as no interest in Giant Jenga and so on. Spoke to my boss, and explained that I could not - in all good conscience - invoice for such time, and hence was planning to either not bill for the 2 days (and not work!) or to carry on from home/office as he preferred. We had a decent chat about this, he understood my point of view and respected my integrity. We agreed that I would attend, as there actually was a fair bit of genuine work content, and then duck out of whatever activities etc. I was not comfortable being involved in, billing them accordingly.
To cut a long story short, my requirements were met, ClientCo felt I was a team-player (high-five!) and all were merry. Moral of the story is communication! In my case, I actually came out smelling of roses, as I had been quite honest about not wanting to bill for a jolly, and kudos gained to boot!

I hope you didn't high-five your boss that's an immediate -20 points on the BET's

[SueEllen]

I hope you didn't high-five your boss that's an immediate -20 points on the BET's

As long as he has two hands he can high five himself.........


(I was presuming there that the boss wasn't his wife.)