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Tory party members happy to destroy the UK to get Brexit

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    #21
    Originally posted by JohntheBike View Post
    what I'm spouting today is that I guess there are many young people of today who would wish that many of what you might consider to be the "essentials" of every day life today, were relatively cheaper pre EU days.
    In your opinion were they cheaper because we were not in the EU?
    I'm perfect, in a very specific and limited way.
    Hands... out infractions
    Face... the music
    Space... between the ears

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      #22
      Originally posted by JohntheBike View Post
      what I'm spouting today is that I guess there are many young people of today who would wish that many of what you might consider to be the "essentials" of every day life today, were relatively cheaper didn't even exist in pre EU days.
      FTFY

      To a large extend life seems more expensive nowadays, because there is a lot more considered "essential" that didn't even exist 50 years ago.

      In any case none of it has anything to do with the UK EU membership, since contrary to the popular belief we have always had control.

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        #23
        Originally posted by WTFH View Post
        There's no contention about it, it was cheaper. There were council houses, most rented properties weren't privately owned. Going to university didn't require a loan, in fact you were given a grant. Kids got free school meals. etc. The EU didn't change any of that.



        Companies were sold to shareholders. Shareholders demand profits and generally aren't interested in money being invested in "manufacturing", so sell off and outsource to the cheapest option to keep the shareholders happy and to make sure the funds are there for the pension pots of the board.

        Perhaps the pining is for Victorian days, when women didn't vote, etc. Or maybe it's the idea of harking back to "The War" by people who didn't fight in it and show more support for the axis powers than for the allies.
        Most men didn't have the vote back then either. It was just landowners, and now instead of the vote it's retirement that only landowners are getting.

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          #24
          Originally posted by JohntheBike View Post
          what I'm spouting today is that I guess there are many young people of today who would wish that many of what you might consider to be the "essentials" of every day life today, were relatively cheaper pre EU days.
          So.

          It's expensive to live in Hong Kong. It's expensive to live in Singapore. It's expensive to live in Melbourne. It's expensive in Iceland.

          None of these places are are in the EU.

          Fact is, the world has become expensive. As the divide between 'rich' and 'poor' has reduced, more people can aspire (and do) own property. This has been going on around the globe since the 70's.

          Then it's a simple case of supply and demand Oh, and the fact that there are billions more now than 1960 (3 billion then, 7.7 billion now). The world hasn't got any bigger so there is more demand for the scarce resources.

          Idiot.
          I am what I drink, and I'm a bitter man

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            #25
            Originally posted by WTFH View Post
            In your opinion were they cheaper because we were not in the EU?
            I didn't say that.

            Comment


              #26
              Originally posted by sal View Post
              FTFY

              To a large extend life seems more expensive nowadays, because there is a lot more considered "essential" that didn't even exist 50 years ago.

              In any case none of it has anything to do with the UK EU membership, since contrary to the popular belief we have always had control.
              "because there is a lot more considered "essential" that didn't even exist 50 years ago"

              agreed.

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                #27
                Originally posted by WTFH View Post
                In your opinion were they cheaper because we were not in the EU?
                Originally posted by JohntheBike View Post
                I didn't say that.
                I asked the question, I didn't say you had said it. I was trying to find out what you thought - in your opinion were things cheaper because we were not in the EU?

                It's not a trick question, it's not an accusation, it's not big words, it's asking you to state your opinion.
                I'm perfect, in a very specific and limited way.
                Hands... out infractions
                Face... the music
                Space... between the ears

                Comment


                  #28
                  Originally posted by WTFH View Post
                  In your opinion were they cheaper because we were not in the EU?
                  Shocking to consider but there might be multiple factors....

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Originally posted by WordIsBond View Post
                    Shocking to consider but there might be multiple factors....

                    Oh, I think there are.

                    The poster in question has stated in his posts that things were better before we were in the EU.
                    I am simply asking if he is saying that he believes they were better because we were not in the EU, or is he just using "pre-EU" in the same way as he could have said "before 1970", that it's not do do with joining the EU, but to do with other factors.
                    I'm perfect, in a very specific and limited way.
                    Hands... out infractions
                    Face... the music
                    Space... between the ears

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Originally posted by WTFH View Post
                      I asked the question, I didn't say you had said it. I was trying to find out what you thought - in your opinion were things cheaper because we were not in the EU?

                      It's not a trick question, it's not an accusation, it's not big words, it's asking you to state your opinion.
                      Well, let me put it this way. There are those who will claim that all the improvements in all aspects of the UK's existence that have occurred since joining the EU are to be attributed to membership of the EU. There will also be those that claim that any detrimental affects that they feel that the UK has suffered since joining the EU are also attributed to the EU.

                      Let me give you one example of the first situation.

                      The dualling of the A465 from Neath to Abergavenny has been partially funded by the EU. EU supporters claim that this shows the benefit to Wales of EU membership. However, they fail to realise that the whole plan had been drawn up well before the UK had joined the EU, and the very first stage from Neath to Aberdulais was completed roughly at the same time that the UK joined the EU. So work had started some time earlier.

                      My father in law had been the deputy engineer of the local council in Neath and he stated that the route of the M4 through the Neath area had been pencilled in during the 1930's. It wasn't until the 1990's that it was completed. So many of the major infrastructure plans had been drawn up well prior to the UK joining the EU and would have to have been costed. So how much of the membership fees of the EU would have been allocated to these projects if we hadn't joined, remains to be seen.

                      For the second situation,
                      Some in Wales are blaming the demise of many of our industries on membership of the EU. Yes, some have been transferred to EU countries, but Ford's recent announcement to close the Bridgend engine plant is based purely on cost. The Mexican engine plant is already geared up to produce the engines and at much lower cost. Ford moved the production of UK market Fiestas to Valencia in Spain for the same reason. I'll come back to this later.

                      However, it's interesting to note that although Wales has apparently been a major beneficiary of EU membership, the majority of people in Wales voted to leave.

                      I don't believe that many believed the propaganda put out by both sides. Those that I've discussed the issues with had a wide variety of reasons for voting the way they did.

                      It's a very emotive issue.

                      However, just a little history.

                      When De Gaulle was alive, he continuously vetoed our attempts to join the Common Market, as it was then called. Some commentators of my age group now believe this was related to the large discrepancy in our costs compared with France particularly. I was only interested in motor bikes and girls in the 1960's and had little political interest, so can only look at the issues from a historical point of view. The relative cost of living in France was roughly the same as here, except that their average salaries were substantially higher than ours and so were their costs. Travelling on the continent was always more expensive than here, even in Spain. I keep saying that the cost of a Jaguar MK2 in the 1960's was the same as an imported Renault tin can. Some claim that our products were inferior quality to EU offerings, but I counter that with the example of Dacias today. They sell well because they are cheap.

                      I saw the discrepancy whilst touring Holland in the early 1970's. We met up with a family and one member also worked in IT and although our roles were different, he was a programmer and I was an operations manager, his salary was more than twice what mine was. However, his costs of living were also much higher.

                      So if we had joined in the 60's with our level of prices and costs, then the French particularly, because of their proximity, would have flooded over here buying up our goods, to the detriment of the French position. Much the same as we buy Chinese goods now and many flock to France for cigs and wine.

                      So in order to bring our wages/salaries and costs up to roughly the same level as the EU, our HMG introduced decimalisation of our currency. Many were enthusiastic, including myself, but failed to realise that the minimum increase in price would be 2.4 times more than previously. This led to rapid inflation, about 29% at its height. As things began to stabilise, coincidentally, we then joined the EU.

                      We were sold the idea that joining the "Common Market" would be good for trade and living standards. We had already signed up to EFTA. However, there was no mention of the controlling aspect of the EU. This was kept from us, although the government was fully aware of the long terms plans for the EU. If the populace had been fully informed of these plans, some commentators claim that the UK would not have voted to join the EU.

                      So even if you believe that the conclusions and opinions are suspect, the economic facts of 1960's life in the UK are hard to counter.

                      Prior to joining the EU, we had purchase tax, which was only levied on luxury goods. If you wanted to buy a hammer or anything consumable, there was no tax on these items. However, when the UK joined the EU, VAT was introduced. Thus putting up prices on every day commodities. However, income tax was 33% in those days and only 20% now as we know. It could be argued that VAT is better, because it allows a certain level of choice. However, with it being more widely applied, this is questionable.

                      So, what I'm trying to convey is that as far as Brexit is concerned, there is a wide variety of viewpoints and my judgement is that most people will have voted in an emotive way and not necessarily based on any economic understanding of the consequences. I guess many wouldn't have considered the Irish situation. Also remember that a large percentage of people didn't vote at all, so Brexit is of no concern to them and they may believe that their lives and fortunes might not change however the remainder might have voted.

                      I hope I've answered your questions, and I'd welcome a reply and further debate devoid of any abusive statements.

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