The more sinister side of Brexit

[northernladyuk]

So there we have it. Its tough that we let china and half the developing world build stuff for almost slave labour money and as a result we have no work for our own lower classes. They will just have to sit on their arse and be poor. (not that they can because we are in the middle of making work pay...)

I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. Im not so selfish to deny them that right just because Im better off than them.

What a strawman that is! Globalisation is a tough challenge, but the West can no longer suppress industrial production in developing countries as it did in imperial times. Effective responses to the challenge are possible but complex. However, chucking petrol on the fire because we have to do something won't help.

Footnote: the Civil War and execution of Charles I did not occur in the Middle Ages.

[sasguru]

So there we have it. Its tough that we let china and half the developing world build stuff for almost slave labour money and as a result we have no work for our own lower classes. They will just have to sit on their arse and be poor. (not that they can because we are in the middle of making work pay...)

I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. Im not so selfish to deny them that right just because Im better off than them.

The biggest problem in the West is what to do with the 52% of people of below average intelligence in an economy that pays highly only for strong cognitive skills or entrepreneurship. But withdrawing from the world only makes the problem worse.

[bobspud]

You need to consider the lump of labour fallacy. Immigrants come into an area and don't simply displace other workers, but grow the economy, creating more jobs. A simple example, if a country of 70,000,000 had 3,500,000 unemployed and 3,500,000 people with jobs left the country, that would not solve unemployment. Of course, that does not mean that impacts do not vary locally.

In terms of outsourcing and immigration, what sits behind this is globalisation. 1950's UK enjoyed (as did other European and North American countries) the advantages of captive markets created by the suppression of industry in the developing world, either through colonialism or 'unequal treaties'. That advantage has gone and the UK et al must compete with China et al. Regrettably, the era when a working class male industrial wage could bring up a family decently in an owned home, with a final salary pension at the end (as my Dad managed) are over. A high wage economy is unlikely to be the solution, and that is a tough message to sell. But trashing the economy with Brexit is not going to help.

So there we have it. Its tough that we let china and half the developing world build stuff for almost slave labour money and as a result we have no work for our own lower classes. They will just have to sit on their arse and be poor. (not that they can because we are in the middle of making work pay...)

I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. Im not so selfish to deny them that right just because Im better off than them.

[northernladyuk]

Actually I do live in the middle of nowhere...

Its far from boring. I can do all the usual country stuff and pop into the surrounding nice cities and get trains to most places and I even have an international airport not too far away... The problem is we have not set the infrastructure up in this country to populate every square foot. We have hundreds of crapy bottlenecks all over the place.

Been more than happy with the Eastern Europeans that have been here they have washed my cars fantastically and put lots into the local economies... But the point is their gains were some local businesses lost trade. You cannot / should not expect to screw up another classes income base and not expect a kickback for hurting them...

There is a bloody good reason the youngsters are earning bugger all and that is we let outsourcing and immigration subdue wage growth...

You need to consider the lump of labour fallacy. Immigrants come into an area and don't simply displace other workers, but grow the economy, creating more jobs. A simple example, if a country of 70,000,000 had 3,500,000 unemployed and 3,500,000 people with jobs left the country, that would not solve unemployment. Of course, that does not mean that impacts do not vary locally.

In terms of outsourcing and immigration, what sits behind this is globalisation. 1950's UK enjoyed (as did other European and North American countries) the advantages of captive markets created by the suppression of industry in the developing world, either through colonialism or 'unequal treaties'. That advantage has gone and the UK et al must compete with China et al. Regrettably, the era when a working class male industrial wage could bring up a family decently in an owned home, with a final salary pension at the end (as my Dad managed) are over. A high wage economy is unlikely to be the solution, and that is a tough message to sell. But trashing the economy with Brexit is not going to help.

[bobspud]

What is interesting is that you could easily find a job in Yorkshire and/or Wales where there are huge swathes of open space but I very much suspect you wouldn't go there, because if you live in a place full of open space it is as boring as hell.

This talk about open space is a meaningless slogan.

Actually I do live in the middle of nowhere...

Its far from boring. I can do all the usual country stuff and pop into the surrounding nice cities and get trains to most places and I even have an international airport not too far away... The problem is we have not set the infrastructure up in this country to populate every square foot. We have hundreds of crapy bottlenecks all over the place.

Been more than happy with the Eastern Europeans that have been here they have washed my cars fantastically and put lots into the local economies... But the point is their gains were some local businesses lost trade. You cannot / should not expect to screw up another classes income base and not expect a kickback for hurting them...

There is a bloody good reason the youngsters are earning bugger all and that is we let outsourcing and immigration subdue wage growth...

[BlasterBates]

There is significantly more open available space in Africa than in the UK.

Just there is no free stuff there.

What is interesting is that you could easily find a job in Yorkshire and/or Wales where there are huge swathes of open space but I very much suspect you wouldn't go there, because if you live in a place full of open space it is as boring as hell.

This talk about open space is a meaningless slogan.

[northernladyuk]

This is a Brexit thread, so I assume we are talking about EU countries, of which the UK is the third most densely populated out of the 28. It also took in the second highest amount of migrants.

Does this help?

Not really, Simon. By all means narrow it down to '...within the context of EU members' if you wish, but how does 'third most densely populated in EU' (is that correct - Malta, Netherlands, Belgium? small point I know), which is a statement of fact, equate to 'overcrowded', which is a value judgment?

'It also took in the second highest amount of migrants' obviously impacts on the net population change, but that doesn't help define 'small and overcrowded'.

[Lance]

The more sinister side of Brexit

There is significantly more open available space in Africa than in the UK.

Just there is no free stuff there.

Citation needed.
And don’t include deserts or protected national parks where people aren’t allowed to move to.

You’ve not been there have you?

[original PM]

This map shows that the notion of the UK being built up is more perception than reality. Only 6% of the country is actually built on.

A green and pleasant land: Map reveals more than half of Britain is countryside | Daily Mail Online

Plenty of open space in the UK.

I visit my sister in London and it certainly doesn't appear any more crowded than anywhere else I've lived and I've lived in quite a few countries.

The fact is if you actually get out of your car you'll find plenty of remote countryside on your doorstep wherever you live and that includes London which is mainly built up and down the Thames. Just a short step from the City and you're up on Shooters hill, where all you see is countryside. Fact is people drive around on roads. Roads are where settlements are built so of course if you drive around in a car you get the impression that Britain is "full".

There is significantly more open available space in Africa than in the UK.

Just there is no free stuff there.

[milanbenes]

This is a Brexit thread, so I assume we are talking about EU countries, of which the UK is the third most densely populated out of the 28. It also took in the second highest amount of migrants.

Does this help?

yes but Simon, Britain has been taking in migrants en masse going back to the 17th century, from the market in Corn Street to White Ladies Road and Black Boy Hill.

Hence we cannot for Britain, consider migration only in the context of the EU, Britain has been doing migration whole-sale en masse since it joined the slave trade in the 17th century.

Milan.