Aren't the majority of IT contractors inside IR35?

[dbcontractor]

All, my first post. I'm an IT contractor and been contracting for 3.5 years now, in the financial sector.

Have managed to get the right clauses into my contract to be IR35 compliant.

But seriously, can a normal IT contractor ever be outside IR35?

For example, which bank will allow an IT contractor to send in a substitute?

Its fine to have the right clauses in the contract, but will we ever stand a chance if a real investigation takes place?

[northernladuk]

All, my first post. I'm an IT contractor and been contracting for 3.5 years now, in the financial sector.

Have managed to get the right clauses into my contract to be IR35 compliant.

But seriously, can a normal IT contractor ever be outside IR35?

For example, which bank will allow an IT contractor to send in a substitute?

Its fine to have the right clauses in the contract, but will we ever stand a chance if a real investigation takes place?

I don't think so no. You mention 3.5 years, how many clients is that? The roles may LOOK like a bum on a seat and filling in for the permies which you would think would put you inside but thats not how you are offering your service. If you have negotiated with the client, are respectful but don't have to be controlled by time and have this in your contract then no your as far out of IR35 as you can safely be without arguing about it IMO.

If you think and act like a permie you are putting yourself inside which I think happens a lot as well. My contract doesn't say 9-5 and nor does the other contractor working with me but he sees it fit to work to time and actually comment to me on my slack time keeping... thats because I am not controlled as per my contract. I think that type of thing is what makes a role look like its inside for a start.

Tired of typing but I think I made a point in there somewhere :\

[mudskipper]

I think ROS is the hardest. I'm guessing you're right in that many clients see themselves as hiring you, the contractor, and not the services of your company. My understanding is that ROS is just one (very helpful) aspect to being outside IR35, but it's a balancing game and if other things are in your favour than you can still be more non-employee than employee.

[MarillionFan]

90% of contractors on here are disguised employees and are all inside IR35, regardless of what they believe and say they are outside, have written etc.

For those who say they are inside and pay the tax/NI are the real idiots, because!!!!

As said 90% are inside, most reckon they aren't so act as if they are not. They are of course are inside. For those who reckon they are inside, they're right, but! by playing it the other way and saying you're not means you pay less tax... and because the Inland Revenue pull so few IT contractors out for an audit, in the the terms of a gambler, it is better to say outside than inside. Capiche!

Only 10% on here are really outside IR35 with multiple contracts, and only 1% of those have a real business. As 99% of contractors are really 'Self Employed' so when they die, the LTD dies!

And thats the bottom line!

...Now expect some bolshy tw@t to say, they are a real company and that they run their business properly...

[Moscow Mule]

The contract myco has with clientco doesn't specify an individual, it just says "Programmer". Which is handy for avoiding a contract of service

I also turn up when I want, and go home when there's nothing to do. Which is handy for MOO.

I accept a degree of risk with an IR35 investigation, but because of poorly worded legislation this is how I have to work.

If being genuinely self-employed was a viable option, then I'd much prefer to do that.

[Wanderer]

But seriously, can a normal IT contractor ever be outside IR35?

Sure he can. He just says "I'm outside IR35" and he is! Works a treat for the contractors I know.

You're right though - it's such a grey area that it's unreal.

[swamp]

On the other hand, you could be very much outside IR35. Then a few years hence some dimwit secretary describes you as an employee to Hector, and you find that you are shafted.

It's down to luck.

[ettubrute]

Isn't it "funny" that this kind of legislation now exists in almost all countries? Although the wording and the terms are different, I have been battling with the same problem in the Netherlands and South Africa for years now!

It seems governments hate entrepreneurs and one-(wo)man companies! Maybe because they can't control us enough, and hate our freedom?

[escapeUK]

Isn't it "funny" that this kind of legislation now exists in almost all countries? Although the wording and the terms are different, I have been battling with the same problem in the Netherlands and South Africa for years now!

It seems governments hate entrepreneurs and one-(wo)man companies! Maybe because they can't control us enough, and hate our freedom?

Yes. Like most of Labours 1000s of news laws it is so vague as to be unworkable. Another example is why people are still hunting today.

[malvolio]

The reality is that almost all independent contractors are outside IR35. The tests are known and well established in case law. 95% or more of all investigations involving IR35 do not succeed. For example, you don't need to send a sub, and your client may have a reasonable but limited veto if you offer one, but employees do not have the right to offer one at all. So if you are allowed to consider sending one, how can you be in an employee-like realtionship?

I'm an interim. I'm currently managging a team of 50-odd support guys (some very odd) and look to most like any other employee. However, I set the hours I work, I have set the clear objectives I intend to deliver, I make it clear I do not do HR in any shape or form. The guys sat acoss from me, also a contractor, is on salary, signs holiday request forms, agrees to quarterly appraisals and takes on work outside his remit. Doesn't mean either of us are caught, but I know which of us can defend his position.

The problem is that most independent contractors are unwilling to behave like businesses and can't be arsed to establish their true working conditions, they'd rather see a weekly pay cheque with no fuss or bother.

I've said it before, I'll keep on saying it: paying IR35 (or using an umbrella just to escape it, which is equally stupid) is purely a voluntary decision.