BN66 - Round 2 (Court of Appeal)

[BolshieBastard]

Bolshie, my point is they will be annoyed they havent got their hands on the cash yet, I expect they thought it was a slam dunk once the legislation went through. They wont be embarrassed no, and of course I dont think they give a flying F***, but they will be extremely irritated this isnt closed yet and that we dare challenge them....so im afraid you missed my point....and knowing that they are probably pissed off with us lot gives me a certain amount of pleasure....

Lofted, you also missed the point of my post, I didnt say they care a sh*t and would be red faced, just infuriated by us kicking up some dust and not rolling over and paying like good little servants

Sorry mate and again, no disrespect; but, (after having worked for the DWP's predecessors for 20 odd years) I can assure you no government department and especially HMRC, would be annoyed about not getting their hands on the cash yet. They really dont give one jot. They just see it as a war of attrition. They know a sizeable people affected by this have taken out CTD's. They know a lot of people settled via he who should not be named.

They'll wait until we are dead and take the money from our estates if they have to wait that long.

[SantaClaus]

Ok, this might sound sensationalist, but I think theres truth in it...

According to an article by Martin Armstrong (who was falsely imprisoned by the US authorities for his beliefs), the world is facing a debt crisis never seen before.

http://www.martinarmstrong.org/files...-7-31-2010.pdf

There are no plans for governments to ever pay off their debts. The debts will be rolled over perpetually until govt.'s default.

We are facing hyper-inflation as our govt.'s continue printing money. Think about it... our alleged debts to HMRC will eventually whittle away to nothing.

If you want to get a CTD, dont bother! Buy some physical gold instead. Not a piece of paper that says you own gold, but actual gold bullion stored in a safety deposit box. When the time comes, you can chip off a tiny bit of that gold bar and it will cover the bill in Sterling from HMRC

Anyway, it's a very interesting article and relevant in a way to this whole thread. There's also a ton of other stuff on the website.

[screwthis]

Ok, this might sound sensationalist, but I think theres truth in it...

http://www.martinarmstrong.org/files...-7-31-2010.pdf

We are facing hyper-inflation as our govt.'s continue printing money. Think about it... our alleged debts to HMRC will eventually whittle away to nothing.

SC,

Just read through this. Is v. interesting. Have been concerned about this for some time but have resisted doing anything drastic about it (like selling up and buying gold) as I have seen a lot of doommongering and opinion over the years which has or hasn't materialised (mostly hasn't). I think things can always go either way and this is basically the opinion of a pundit (right or wrong).

Just out of interest, we are all current or ex-contractors (the type of people who are likely to have BTL properties on our books). I would be interested to know if anyone here is selling up to preempt a double dip or outright crash or conversly who is holding on for the long term and a stronger market

[smalldog]

SC,

Just read through this. Is v. interesting. Have been concerned about this for some time but have resisted doing anything drastic about it (like selling up and buying gold) as I have seen a lot of doommongering and opinion over the years which has or hasn't materialised (mostly hasn't). I think things can always go either way and this is basically the opinion of a pundit (right or wrong).

Just out of interest, we are all current or ex-contractors (the type of people who are likely to have BTL properties on our books). I would be interested to know if anyone here is selling up to preempt a double dip or outright crash or conversly who is holding on for the long term and a stronger market

Im holding, my portfolio has lost most of its equity so no point selling up...I would get a fraction of the money and it wouldnt cover any HMRC debt if we lost so no point

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Just read through this. Is v. interesting. Have been concerned about this for some time but have resisted doing anything drastic about it (like selling up and buying gold) as I have seen a lot of doommongering and opinion over the years which has or hasn't materialised (mostly hasn't). I think things can always go either way and this is basically the opinion of a pundit (right or wrong).

I think it's pointless trying to predict the future as things rarely turn out the way people expect.

It's a bit like trying to forecast the outcome of our appeal.

Most pundits are saying that the CoA will more than likely uphold Parker and, whilst I tend to agree, the bottom line is no-one can possibly know with any certainty which way the decision will go.

[screwthis]

I think it's pointless trying to predict the future as things rarely turn out the way people expect.

It's a bit like trying to forecast the outcome of our appeal.

Most pundits are saying that the CoA will more than likely uphold Parker and, whilst I tend to agree, the bottom line is no-one can possibly know with any certainty which way the decision will go.

I feel like I am appealing one massive unfair parking ticket.
i.e. Unfair in more ways than is possible to articulate but still get the feeling that for whatever reason you're just not going to win.

[SantaClaus]

I think it's pointless trying to predict the future as things rarely turn out the way people expect.

It's a bit like trying to forecast the outcome of our appeal.

Most pundits are saying that the CoA will more than likely uphold Parker and, whilst I tend to agree, the bottom line is no-one can possibly know with any certainty which way the decision will go.

It's true DR, no-one can predict the future.

But Armstrong's musing make entertaining reading, he has got things right in the past, and because of HMRC, I'm privately hoping for either the doomsday scenario or 50+ years before we get to the ECHR.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Wide margin of appreciation

I feel like I am appealing one massive unfair parking ticket.
i.e. Unfair in more ways than is possible to articulate but still get the feeling that for whatever reason you're just not going to win.

The problem we're up against is the "wide margin of appreciation" afforded to the authorities under A1P1. (Try googling this phrase.)

This is entirely subjective. There are no absolute boundaries. It may be black and white at the extremes but there is a big grey area in the middle.

This partly explains why we've ended up with wildly conflicting interpretations from the JCHR and the High Court.

The JCHR will tend to err on the side of caution and set the bar quite low as to what is/isn't acceptable. Their role is to stop legislation, which may be incompatible, getting enacted in the first place. (Sadly, of course, they never scrutinised Section 58 before it became law.)

The Courts, on the other hand, will set the bar much higher giving the benefit of the doubt to the legislature. They are very reluctant to interfere with the will of Parliament.

As the JCHR said, there is no doubt whatsoever that Section 58 is an arguable breach of A1P1.

The question is though does it overstep the mark enough for it to clear the very high bar set by the courts? This is where I fear we may come unstuck.

[Buzby]

The Courts, on the other hand, will set the bar much higher giving the benefit of the doubt to the legislature. They are very reluctant to interfere with the will of Parliament.

....

Do you think the fact we have a new government (and therefore a new 'will of parliament') help with the appeal?

and on a separate, issue - thinking of cashing in my CTD and buying Gold! Since its only about 10% of my bill I can't really see the point in keeping it.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Do you think the fact we have a new government (and therefore a new 'will of parliament') help with the appeal?

and on a separate, issue - thinking of cashing in my CTD and buying Gold! Since its only about 10% of my bill I can't really see the point in keeping it.

The fact that the new Government have issued a statement, saying they are generally opposed to retrospective legislation, can't hurt but I'm not sure it will make any real difference. The court will be addressing one very narrow question in November - "is s.58 compatible with ECHR?" - and this will come down to points of law, not the views of politicians.

One thing to bear in mind if you cash in your CTD is you will forfeit any benefit from having it. This isn't a problem if you took it out recently but if you've had it a long time then it is worth bearing in mind.

Also, Gold is quite a volatile investment. Take a look at the 5-year chart before climbing aboard the rollercoaster.

Technical Gold Charts and Data - London Fix

Although Santa has advocated buying the precious metal itself, there are easier ways to invest in it. Some of the Gold ETFs are backed by physical gold, and you can hold these in an ISA.

If you're feeling even more adventurous, consider Silver.