Brit, but Working in Germany... ??

[Moff]

One thing to consider is that in your circumstances, especially if you've not registered in Germany or have other "pointers" there like a bank account then will anyone ever know you were in Germany for >183 days. A small pointer may be no VAT charged.

As I am Uk LTD company, billing a UK LTD company, I am charging VAT, is this wrong ?

[dang65]

Hypothetically, if someone I knew was to work three days each week in Germany and have four days at home (two working, two weekend), flying out on Sunday evening and flying back on Wednesday evening and staying in hotels when in Germany... would he be liable for German tax?

I've never seen genuine clarification of how this would count from a taxman point of view.

Could he keep doing this every single week of the year, for years on end, and still never have any issue with German tax because 3 days x 52 weeks = 156 days. Or would he be caught because 4 days x 52 weeks = 208 days (i.e. including the Sunday flight day).

Or does he get caught anyway because he's working for a German company and his contract exceeds 183 days in total, whether he's physically in Germany or not?

[chef]

ok very simple for all:

a) how many days have you spent within the borders of Germany including the day you arrived and the day you left?
b) if a => 183 days then you are classed as residing in Germany as you spend over 6 months in the country, the same as russain oligarch's are classed as residing in the uk if they spend more than 183 days here, the same as the rolling stones cancelled a gig one year as that would mean they too were classed as living in the uk.. its not about the number of days worked, its about the number of days spent within the borders
c) if you are classed as a resident of germany you required to register the address(es) you live in Germany and pay tax on any worldwide income you have
d) if you already pay or have paid tax on any part of your worldwide income in another country you still have to complete a german tax return and in it you should detail what taxes you have paid and where you paid them along with proof
e) if you are an employer of a company who's employees work within the german borders you are also required to abide by german corporate laws which an accountant will be able to inform you of.

[dang65]

ok very simple for all:

a) how many days have you spent within the borders of Germany including the day you arrived and the day you left?

Sorry, I realise you've made this very simple, but can you clear up one point:

My friend's inbound flight lands in Germany at 22:00 on Sunday night.

His outbound flight takes off from Germany at 20:00 on Wednesday evening.

So, that's not even three x 24hrs. But are you saying it actually counts as four full days?

I mean, this is pretty much irrelevant anyway, as he's not likely to exceed 183 days on this contract even if the above travel routine counts as four days in Germany, but I'm curious about how it works.

[chef]

yes, it is 4 days spent in Germany per week.

the registration form (required to gain a tax number which is required to complete a tax return) simply asks arrival date into country.

If ever it were checked there will be a form with a box saying date(s) of entry into the country and if required proof (you flight ticket says sunday so sunday it is) and then the same for departure (again flight ticket says weds so weds it is).

It is calculated in days:

departure date - arrival date = days spent in germany

not hours.. zee germans are precise but not that precise.

[dang65]

It is calculated in days:

departure date - arrival date = days spent in germany

not hours.. zee germans are precise but not that precise.

Yes, I guess they're happy to waive the preciseness in a situation like this.

Does seem a bit cheeky that someone can spend LESS than 3 days in a country but be counted as spending 4 whole days there.

Still, it's no big deal on these short contracts. My friend can still do at least 9 months without even thinking about registering.

[poppy01]

Yes, I guess they're happy to waive the preciseness in a situation like this.

Does seem a bit cheeky that someone can spend LESS than 3 days in a country but be counted as spending 4 whole days there.

Still, it's no big deal on these short contracts. My friend can still do at least 9 months without even thinking about registering.

so if you homeworked for 2 days, and spent 3 days in Germany, its still only classed as 3 days?

[chef]

so if you homeworked for 2 days, and spent 3 days in Germany, its still only classed as 3 days?

it's the number of days within the borders of germany that they are looking at as to whether you are classified as resident, if 183 days or more in a January to December period then you fill a tax return on worldwide income and pay tax on it less any taxes paid in other countries that Germany has a dual taxation agreement with.

if your working from home and that home is based in germany then it woul be 5 days, if your working from home and home is london then it would be 3 days assuming you fly in and out on day 1 and 3 respectively.

If you spend 182 days here every year for the next 20 years then you will not be liable to complete a tax return as you are not resident here. I believe, however, I Am Not An Accountant..

[Olly]

so if you homeworked for 2 days, and spent 3 days in Germany, its still only classed as 3 days?

er...I'm not sure that makes sense as a question. What exactly are you asking because it sounds like you just asked is 3 days = 3 days (and nothing further).

There's something I'd like to check on which I haven't been able to get a clear answer to yet.

Hypothetically 182 days in one year and 182 in the next so that during a 12 month period well over 183 days accrued but no more than 182 in a calender yr.

Would that mean German tax for 364 days?

Looks like because of April to April being the UK tax year that things get a bit more complicated too.

[chef]

er...I'm not sure that makes sense as a question. What exactly are you asking because it sounds like you just asked is 3 days = 3 days (and nothing further).

There's something I'd like to check on which I haven't been able to get a clear answer to yet.

Hypothetically 182 days in one year and 182 in the next so that during a 12 month period well over 183 days accrued but no more than 182 in a calender yr.

Would that mean German tax for 364 days?

Looks like because of April to April being the UK tax year that things get a bit more complicated too.

i asked my accountant that very same question, his reply was "183 days in a jan - dec german tax year and your classed as resident, if you work 182 and then the next year 182 then your not resident"

.. again IANAA, if your worried, give a real german accountant a quick call