Hi all
(repost as previous attempt errored for some reason)
Been lurking here for a while, as there's a lot of useful info going on. I've especially been reading recent IR35 info: I had my own LtdCo back in the late 90s/early 2000s, but the IR35 situation has changed a lot since then. Especially useful was that introductory "Be careful" sticky.
I started an "outside IR35" contract back in June, but went Umbrella because it was too much hassle to set up a LtdCo quickly. The idea was that I might go LtdCo on contract renewal. This does appear to be an as-genuine-as-possible Outside contract, with an SDS, all my colleagues aware that it's outside, working from anywhere.
Contract renewal has happened, but... reading through the contract, I found this "indemnity" clause, which made my hair stand on end:
(my emphasis).
I was also annoyed that I only saw this contract once I'd already set up the LtdCo.
So, after quite a bit of to-and-froing with the agent (and the client, who wanted me back soon), I've renewed on an Umbrella basis, with the understanding that I'd investigate the LtdCo option further and switch to that after a few weeks if I decide to.
What makes my hair stand on end
Sure I know that going LtdCo exposes me to certain risks. Among those is that HMRC will get all heavy with me, years down the line, find me actually inside IR35 and demand a whole load of tax. That's fine, I can deal with that, as long as it's my own judgment, behaviour and risk evaluation in charge. What seems utterly crazy about this clause is that the whole process appears to be completely outside my control. Rather than me dealing with HMRC if and when this happens, it seems that either the client or Employment Business could get the heavy treatment from HMRC, deal with it exactly as they like, incur legal costs if they feel like it, fight it all the way to the Galactic Court, lose... and then the first I'd hear of it would be a bill dropping through my letterbox: a bill far exceeding the actual tax HMRC were after.
My questions
1. As far as anyone knows, am I interpreting this clause correctly? (Everything I've researched indicates that no-one knows - or whether this kind of clause is even enforceable).
2. Has anyone here signed up to a contract with this kind of clause? What were your thoughts about it?
3. Kingsbridge claim to have insurance against this kind of thing, but I'm sceptical about its effectiveness. Among other things, it seems to be a contract between Kingsbridge and all 3 parties (LtdCo, Employment Business, client) - they'd have to agree to abide by its conditions, in particular about disclosing any possible HMRC problem to the insurer immediately, and handing over the conduct of the case to the insurer. Anyone have any opinions on this insurance?
I'm not committed either way: happy to go on on an Umbrella basis and leave my LtdCo dormant, if it seems that this is too much of a risk.
thanks!
(repost as previous attempt errored for some reason)
Been lurking here for a while, as there's a lot of useful info going on. I've especially been reading recent IR35 info: I had my own LtdCo back in the late 90s/early 2000s, but the IR35 situation has changed a lot since then. Especially useful was that introductory "Be careful" sticky.
I started an "outside IR35" contract back in June, but went Umbrella because it was too much hassle to set up a LtdCo quickly. The idea was that I might go LtdCo on contract renewal. This does appear to be an as-genuine-as-possible Outside contract, with an SDS, all my colleagues aware that it's outside, working from anywhere.
Contract renewal has happened, but... reading through the contract, I found this "indemnity" clause, which made my hair stand on end:
If any person
should seek to establish any liability or obligation upon Employment
Business or upon Client on the grounds that Representative is an
employee or worker (or should be treated as such for the purpose of
employment rights, benefits and/or taxation) of Employment Business
or of Client, Contractor agrees to indemnify and hold harmless
Employment Business and/or Client and to keep Employment Business
and/or Client, as the case may be, indemnified in respect of any such
liability or obligation and any related (without limitation) costs,
expenses, legal expenses, proceedings, settlements or other losses
which Employment Business or Client incur.
should seek to establish any liability or obligation upon Employment
Business or upon Client on the grounds that Representative is an
employee or worker (or should be treated as such for the purpose of
employment rights, benefits and/or taxation) of Employment Business
or of Client, Contractor agrees to indemnify and hold harmless
Employment Business and/or Client and to keep Employment Business
and/or Client, as the case may be, indemnified in respect of any such
liability or obligation and any related (without limitation) costs,
expenses, legal expenses, proceedings, settlements or other losses
which Employment Business or Client incur.
I was also annoyed that I only saw this contract once I'd already set up the LtdCo.
So, after quite a bit of to-and-froing with the agent (and the client, who wanted me back soon), I've renewed on an Umbrella basis, with the understanding that I'd investigate the LtdCo option further and switch to that after a few weeks if I decide to.
What makes my hair stand on end
Sure I know that going LtdCo exposes me to certain risks. Among those is that HMRC will get all heavy with me, years down the line, find me actually inside IR35 and demand a whole load of tax. That's fine, I can deal with that, as long as it's my own judgment, behaviour and risk evaluation in charge. What seems utterly crazy about this clause is that the whole process appears to be completely outside my control. Rather than me dealing with HMRC if and when this happens, it seems that either the client or Employment Business could get the heavy treatment from HMRC, deal with it exactly as they like, incur legal costs if they feel like it, fight it all the way to the Galactic Court, lose... and then the first I'd hear of it would be a bill dropping through my letterbox: a bill far exceeding the actual tax HMRC were after.
My questions
1. As far as anyone knows, am I interpreting this clause correctly? (Everything I've researched indicates that no-one knows - or whether this kind of clause is even enforceable).
2. Has anyone here signed up to a contract with this kind of clause? What were your thoughts about it?
3. Kingsbridge claim to have insurance against this kind of thing, but I'm sceptical about its effectiveness. Among other things, it seems to be a contract between Kingsbridge and all 3 parties (LtdCo, Employment Business, client) - they'd have to agree to abide by its conditions, in particular about disclosing any possible HMRC problem to the insurer immediately, and handing over the conduct of the case to the insurer. Anyone have any opinions on this insurance?
I'm not committed either way: happy to go on on an Umbrella basis and leave my LtdCo dormant, if it seems that this is too much of a risk.
thanks!
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