"IR35 could well be dead in a few months" ?

[jamesbrown]

So if I ask Big Design Co to design me some graphics for a project, and three of their employees do some work on it, do I need to report each employee or just Big Design Co?

As stated, it applies when there is a contract to supply workers to a client (and, thus, where YourCo is acting as an Intermediary to supply workers). So it wouldn't apply in your example, because no workers are supplied.

[jamesbrown]

I believe that the reporting requirement will only kick in where there's an agency between the PSC and the end client; I am not sure that a PSC contracting direct with an end client and then sub-contracting part of the role would then be considered an intermediary although re-reading the guidance I am not sure. I'll see if I can find out.

I can't see why not. If YourCo supplies workers, it is acting as an Intermediary. I can't see anywhere that an Intermediary is defined more narrowly than that...

[jamesbrown]

One further clarification. The guidance notes:

"If you only introduce workers to clients or supply workers to other intermediaries, and you aren’t involved in any arrangements that follow, you don’t need to send HMRC reports."

So it wouldn't apply if YourCo was providing workers to an intermediary further up the chain (that intermediary would need to aggregate and report on all supplied workers further down the chain, as in Example 1).

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

As stated, it applies when their is a contract to supply workers to a client (and, thus, where YourCo is acting as an Intermediary to supply workers). So it wouldn't apply in your example, because no workers are supplied.

Well that's exactly the point I was confused about.

"Supplying workers" isn't defined clearly so taking a literal definition, I would take it to mean sub-contracting somebody to provide services direct to the client (e.g. if client asked me to build a team to work on their project and we all worked on-site, or I sent somebody in as a substitute) rather than just sub-contracting somebody to do some work on a small element of the project (under my instruction and potentially without my client even being aware).

It seems a bit hazy to me so would be interested to hear back from Lisa.

[jamesbrown]

Well that's exactly the point I was confused about.

"Supplying workers" isn't defined clearly so taking a literal definition, I would take it to mean sub-contracting somebody to provide services direct to the client (e.g. if client asked me to build a team to work on their project and we all worked on-site, or I sent somebody in as a substitute) rather than just sub-contracting somebody to do some work on a small element of the project (under my instruction and potentially without my client even being aware).

It seems a bit hazy to me so would be interested to hear back from Lisa.

It is a bit hazy, but I think it's about the supply of people (i.e. positions at the client, such as "Widget Developer") rather than deliverables (such as "Widget"). It's also unclear to me how the reporting requirement would work when Intermediary 2 is subcontracting to supply workers to Intermediary 1 when Intermediary 1 is an agency; I guess Intermediary 2 would provide the contact details to Intermediary 1 for gathering and reporting, rather than gathering all of the required information and pushing up the chain(?), yet Intermediary 2 would remain responsible (in some sense) for their subcontractors providing that information to Intermediary 1(?)

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

So my accountant just got back to me and his view mostly backs up my own, which is that if I'm actually supplying the sub-contractor to the end client in some way, then I would be caught by the reporting requirements. If I'm literally just sub-contracting a piece of work to somebody else, then I wouldn't.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

It is a bit hazy, but I think it's about the supply of people (i.e. positions at the client, such as "Widget Developer") rather than deliverables (such as "Widget"). It's also unclear to me how the reporting requirement would work when Intermediary 2 is subcontracting to supply workers to Intermediary 1 when Intermediary 1 is an agency; I guess Intermediary 2 would provide the contact details to Intermediary 1 for gathering and reporting, rather than gathering all of the required information and pushing up the chain(?), yet Intermediary 2 would remain responsible (in some sense) for their subcontractors providing that information to Intermediary 1(?)

[jamesbrown]

So my accountant just got back to me and his view mostly backs up my own, which is that if I'm actually supplying the sub-contractor to the end client in some way, then I would be caught by the reporting requirements. If I'm literally just sub-contracting a piece of work to somebody else, then I wouldn't.

Concur.

Concur.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Hi guys

I emailed HMRc yesterday with the question "Can you please confirm something to me – under the new Agencies Legislation – if a PSC has a contract direct with an end client (so new recruitment agency involved in the process) and they then sub-contract out some of the work, would they be considered an intermediary for the purposes of the legislation and therefore required to report?" The response was "Yes that's right. If the company provides more than one worker it meets the conditions and is a relevant employment intermediary"

HTH

[jamesbrown]

Hi guys

I emailed HMRc yesterday with the question "Can you please confirm something to me – under the new Agencies Legislation – if a PSC has a contract direct with an end client (so new recruitment agency involved in the process) and they then sub-contract out some of the work, would they be considered an intermediary for the purposes of the legislation and therefore required to report?" The response was "Yes that's right. If the company provides more than one worker it meets the conditions and is a relevant employment intermediary"

HTH

Thanks, Lisa.