+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Posts 1 to 10 of 23
  1. #1

    Nervous Newbie


    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    4
    Thanks (Given)
    1
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default IR35 - End Client and determination after using tool

    Good Morning

    My End PSB client has completed a Online HMRC tool based determination on me and have said that they consider me to be in scope of IR35

    I complete disagree with their findings

    I am having many issues trying to convince my end PSB client that they have incorrectly filled out the HMRC online Tool.

    What does the worker have to provide for this engagement that they can't
    claim as an expense from the end client or agency?

    My client answered the above question as not relevant

    As part of my assignment I must provide Evidence of insurance policies in place for public liability, professional indemnity and employer’s liability. I have sent them my various certificates.

    My view is that the above cost would mean that they need to select 'other expenses' as this is something which I must provide and cannot claim back.

    The second thing that I am questioning them on is there answer for If the end client is not satisfied with the work, does the worker have to put it right at their own cost

    No the worker would have to put it right in their usual hours at the usual rate of pay, or for an additional rate of pay.

    After closely looking into my agency with the contact with the Agency it clearly states that I would need to put this right at my own cost, if I make any mistakes, or I do not carry out my role with the reasonable care or skill. The end client could reject my timesheet and I don't get paid for a week if I have not done my work correctly. The end client has been sent a copy of the contract

    So my view is that they should have selected the following answer

    Yes - the worker would have to put it right without an additional charge, and would incur significant additional expenses or material costs.

    Finally when I present evidence to them they keep on saying that they have made their minds and that the determination sticks. I am wondering what to do next?

  2. #2

    Still gathering requirements...


    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    53
    Thanks (Given)
    0
    Thanks (Received)
    2
    Likes (Given)
    2
    Likes (Received)
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern123 View Post
    Good Morning

    My End PSB client has completed a Online HMRC tool based determination on me and have said that they consider me to be in scope of IR35

    I complete disagree with their findings

    I am having many issues trying to convince my end PSB client that they have incorrectly filled out the HMRC online Tool.

    What does the worker have to provide for this engagement that they can't
    claim as an expense from the end client or agency?

    My client answered the above question as not relevant

    As part of my assignment I must provide Evidence of insurance policies in place for public liability, professional indemnity and employer’s liability. I have sent them my various certificates.

    My view is that the above cost would mean that they need to select 'other expenses' as this is something which I must provide and cannot claim back.

    The second thing that I am questioning them on is there answer for If the end client is not satisfied with the work, does the worker have to put it right at their own cost

    No the worker would have to put it right in their usual hours at the usual rate of pay, or for an additional rate of pay.

    After closely looking into my agency with the contact with the Agency it clearly states that I would need to put this right at my own cost, if I make any mistakes, or I do not carry out my role with the reasonable care or skill. The end client could reject my timesheet and I don't get paid for a week if I have not done my work correctly. The end client has been sent a copy of the contract

    So my view is that they should have selected the following answer

    Yes - the worker would have to put it right without an additional charge, and would incur significant additional expenses or material costs.

    Finally when I present evidence to them they keep on saying that they have made their minds and that the determination sticks. I am wondering what to do next?
    Walk away, if you can afford to, stay if you can't.

    I'm not being flippant, but really those are your only two options...

  3. #3

    Faqqed Off

    TheFaQQer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    35,670
    Thanks (Given)
    361
    Thanks (Received)
    1208
    Likes (Given)
    3492
    Likes (Received)
    3012

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern123 View Post
    As part of my assignment I must provide Evidence of insurance policies in place for public liability, professional indemnity and employer’s liability. I have sent them my various certificates.

    My view is that the above cost would mean that they need to select 'other expenses' as this is something which I must provide and cannot claim back.
    Playing devil's advocate, their argument (and HMRCs) would be that you don't need them for this specific engagement, you should have them anyway. Therefore it's not showing that this is a specific expense for the contract (rightly or wrongly).

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern123 View Post
    The second thing that I am questioning them on is there answer for If the end client is not satisfied with the work, does the worker have to put it right at their own cost

    No the worker would have to put it right in their usual hours at the usual rate of pay, or for an additional rate of pay.

    After closely looking into my agency with the contact with the Agency it clearly states that I would need to put this right at my own cost, if I make any mistakes, or I do not carry out my role with the reasonable care or skill. The end client could reject my timesheet and I don't get paid for a week if I have not done my work correctly. The end client has been sent a copy of the contract

    So my view is that they should have selected the following answer

    Yes - the worker would have to put it right without an additional charge, and would incur significant additional expenses or material costs.
    They probably should, and now they will make sure that if they can get away with not paying for any mistakes if they can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern123 View Post
    Finally when I present evidence to them they keep on saying that they have made their minds and that the determination sticks. I am wondering what to do next?
    1) You should ask them what their formal appeals channel is, since they need to provide one by law.

    2) You should ask them for details, in writing, of why they think you are inside IR35, which they need to provide by law.

    3) You either need to negotiate the big increase in your rate for you to stay and work inside IR35, or you need to leave.

    If your contract does not allow the agency / client to make any deductions from your invoice then they will have offered you a new contract which you are free to accept or decline. However, if you are still waiting for payment under the old contract then this is going to cause them (and you) a big headache - by statute they must make the deduction, by contract law they aren't allowed to.
    Best Forum Advisor, 2014
    Work in the public sector? You can read my FAQ here
    Click here to get 15% off your first year's IPSE membership

  4. #4

    Nervous Newbie


    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    4
    Thanks (Given)
    1
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    I wish to explore every avenue before having to leave as I enjoy the role, and the get on well with the team that I work with

    I work with a number of agency workers in the same department, we share the same conditions who were all told that they were considered out of scope

    I did not mention in my previous post that I have also had a full IR35 Contract/working practices review by the legal section of my independent accountants this found me to be out of scope of IR35.

    The Client just replies back we have found your assignment to be in scope. They are based at office many miles from the area in which work in. My Line Management has agreed with me in terms of the working practices and has an sent an email to the PSB's IR35 team confirming they agree with me but the IR35 team have ignored all of the evidence stacking up against the determination.

    They just keep saying our view is that the determination is correct and final HMRC are the only ones who can tell us to rerun the tool.

    If feels like they are speaking to me like they would to a child. The answers no, why?, because it is.

    They are supposed to act with Reasonable care in the determinations, but they now appear to be making blanket decisions
    Last edited by Southern123; 16th June 2017 at 12:32.

  5. #5

    Nervous Newbie


    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    4
    Thanks (Given)
    1
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern123 View Post
    [1) You should ask them what their formal appeals channel is, since they need to provide one by law.

    2) You should ask them for details, in writing, of why they think you are inside IR35, which they need to provide by law.]


    2) You should ask them for details, in writing, of why they think you are inside IR35, which they need to provide by law.

    3) You either need to negotiate the big increase in your rate for you to stay and work inside IR35, or you need to leave.



    If your contract does not allow the agency / client to make any deductions from your invoice then they will have offered you a new contract which you are free to accept or decline. However, if you are still waiting for payment under the old contract then this is going to cause them (and you) a big headache - by statute they must make the deduction, by contract law they aren't allowed to.

    I have already appealed their latest response came today, & they did not provide any reasons ''Our view remains unchanged on this matter and our position is clear and final''

    They have not offered an increase, stating it would defeat the fact that you are caught by IR35

    Ref the contract - I will check this as I have not been paid for ten weeks
    Last edited by Southern123; 16th June 2017 at 12:44.

  6. #6

    My post count is Majestic

    northernladuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    32,078
    Thanks (Given)
    129
    Thanks (Received)
    1172
    Likes (Given)
    1595
    Likes (Received)
    5480

    Default

    Oddly enough even if you convince them you are outside you are still on a sticky wicket. You have proven that the contract does not match working conditions. They say you fix stuff in work time so that stands regardless of what it says in the contract. That clause is a sham so you've got a bad IR35 flag already. Remember working practices trump contact.

    Interesting you've not mentioned substitution.

    I'd say stuck it up and move on. Many people have been in the same situation and either gone inside or moved. Your situation is not unique.
    'CUK forum personality of 2011' - Winner - Yes really!!!!

  7. #7

    My post count is Majestic

    northernladuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    32,078
    Thanks (Given)
    129
    Thanks (Received)
    1172
    Likes (Given)
    1595
    Likes (Received)
    5480

    Default

    Oh and I don't agree with the insurances one either. Your company should have these regardless of the client stipulating you must have it. You are being asked to supply evidence tour business is covered. That's a cost of doing business, not a cost related to a client.
    'CUK forum personality of 2011' - Winner - Yes really!!!!

  8. #8

    Faqqed Off

    TheFaQQer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    35,670
    Thanks (Given)
    361
    Thanks (Received)
    1208
    Likes (Given)
    3492
    Likes (Received)
    3012

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern123 View Post
    I have already appealed their latest response came today, & they did not provide any reasons ''Our view remains unchanged on this matter and our position is clear and final''

    They have not offered an increase, stating it would defeat the fact that you are caught by IR35

    Ref the contract - I will check this as I have not been paid for ten weeks


    The idea that "it would defeat the object" is ridiculous, but it shows that the person doing the assessment is clearly thinking that you are an employee (or disguised employee) and there is nothing that will change that view - your limited company entered into a contract on a set of terms, and the client is fundamentally changing those terms. They don't recognise that, though, they want to tax you as an employee it seems.

    So, the important people who matter clearly don't want to consider the actuality or the impact - they won't consider what you are saying (no matter what support you have of your way of working), and they won't consider an increase to cover for the hit they are expecting you to take.

    Any payment that they make after April 1st this year has to fall into the new rules, so they are liable for assessing the status and deducting tax and NI from your invoice before paying you Net. However, as I said earlier, your contract may make it impossible for them to do this without breaking the contract and you could sue for damages (they will either have to break the law or the contract). TBH, I suspect that you'll find something hidden that allows them to deduct appropriate taxes and you'll be stuck.

    Since nobody wants to play ball, you either have to suck it up, or you need to leave. If you are going to stay, I would start by asking the team for a copy of their sickness policy, their holiday policy, how you can enrol in a pension with them, what benefits you are entitled to etc etc, particularly once you have been there for 12 (14?) weeks depending on the legislation. That might focus their mind a little bit, but I doubt it.

    One other thing I would recommend is (assuming you're a member) to speak to the IPSE policy team about this, since they are looking for real life case studies that can be used to say to politicians and civil servants "here's a real example of what you are doing and the impact of it". Politicians love to start a story with "one of my constituents..." so you may even find a helpful MP (or one who might listen) to raise your concerns directly.
    Best Forum Advisor, 2014
    Work in the public sector? You can read my FAQ here
    Click here to get 15% off your first year's IPSE membership

  9. #9

    Nervous Newbie


    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    4
    Thanks (Given)
    1
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    Oh and I don't agree with the insurances one either. Your company should have these regardless of the client stipulating you must have it. You are being asked to supply evidence tour business is covered. That's a cost of doing business, not a cost related to a client.
    I have always held insurances, but as a director of a limited company, I own all of the shares, and have no other employees then am I legally required to purchase employers liability cover? If not then wouldn't it be considered as something that I must provide to work on the assignment with PSB end client? meaning that it is not a business cost, but a cost related to a client
    Last edited by Southern123; 16th June 2017 at 15:34.

  10. #10

    My post count is Majestic

    northernladuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    32,078
    Thanks (Given)
    129
    Thanks (Received)
    1172
    Likes (Given)
    1595
    Likes (Received)
    5480

    Default

    So tell them as a single person Ltd with you owning more than 50% of the shares that you are exempt and have it taken out of the contract.
    'CUK forum personality of 2011' - Winner - Yes really!!!!

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.