Legal battle to quash IR35 reforms - legal_challenge_funding_campaign
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  1. #11

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    It's often not as straightforward as that. There are wards at the local hospital that are run completely by agency nurses at night. One of those nurses has to be in charge and supervise the others which is where a blanket decision doesn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisw70 View Post
    It's often not as straightforward as that. There are wards at the local hospital that are run completely by agency nurses at night. One of those nurses has to be in charge and supervise the others which is where a blanket decision doesn't work.
    But surely if it's run completely by agency nurses many if not most should be inside IR35 because they are doing the job of a permie.
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    I think if they had fixed contracts then yes. The thing is because they are ad hoc staff and might only do one shift at that hospital I'm not sure where mutuality of obligation fits into this, if at all. NHS improvements released an update following a legal challenge stating that all NHS bodies must assess each worker individually but it's just not happening on the ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    But surely if it's run completely by agency nurses many if not most should be inside IR35 because they are doing the job of a permie.
    Not quite - if all night shifts are done by agency staff there is no permie doing a similar job...
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisw70 View Post
    I think if they had fixed contracts then yes. The thing is because they are ad hoc staff and might only do one shift at that hospital I'm not sure where mutuality of obligation fits into this, if at all. NHS improvements released an update following a legal challenge stating that all NHS bodies must assess each worker individually but it's just not happening on the ground.
    If someone is there for a single shift its a lot of work for zero benefit....

    To be blunt its someone doing a job where permanent people would (in an ideal world) be employed. Hence (personally) its more likely to be inside than outside.... One reason why its become such a bug bear is that contracting without the hassle of admin and responsibility is for many NHS workers both far more profitable and far less stressful to the point that something had to be done to reverse the one way traffic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eek View Post
    Not quite - if all night shifts are done by agency staff there is no permie doing a similar job...
    I see what you are saying but that just doesn't make sense. You have to assume that the plan is for permies to be doing it. They can't find them so it's all agency. Surely they can't have a policy that only agency staff work nights? That's crazy. Even that said it's an enduring role so permanent. Same role as other permies, just a different time so I'd still say they were inside even if that is their policy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    I see what you are saying but that just doesn't make sense. You have to assume that the plan is for permies to be doing it. They can't find them so it's all agency. Surely they can't have a policy that only agency staff work nights? That's crazy. Even that said it's an enduring role so permanent. Same role as other permies, just a different time so I'd still say they were inside even if that is their policy.
    Sarcasm never works online. My point was that I'm dubious as to how many healthcare related nhs roles are really outside.
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    These things cost ALOT of money. As I pointed out recently, one should be wary of any advisers with no skin in the game.

    You need LOTS and LOTS of people with VERY deep pockets.

    The legal "profession" seems only interested in lining its own pockets.

    Be afraid. Be very afraid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eek View Post
    Sarcasm never works online. My point was that I'm dubious as to how many healthcare related nhs roles are really outside.
    Oh.. Oops. Didn't spot that but yes, totally agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    I see what you are saying but that just doesn't make sense. You have to assume that the plan is for permies to be doing it. They can't find them so it's all agency. Surely they can't have a policy that only agency staff work nights? That's crazy. Even that said it's an enduring role so permanent. Same role as other permies, just a different time so I'd still say they were inside even if that is their policy.
    I've spoken to nursing friends' and family over the years.

    Hospitals try and put the permie staff on at the most expensive times e.g. bank holidays, so the plan is to always put permies on when they can. So yes all the roles are inside.
    "You’re just a bad memory who doesn’t know when to go away" JR

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