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  1. #21

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    Default New rules being worked out by NHS hospitals

    Good afternoon all,

    Anxious doctors joining the conversation...

    I am a full time hospital locum and the hospitals and the in betweeners ( Liaison FS and 247Time ) has started to send out their versions of the new world after 6th of April. I have included a section from a letter sent to me by a hospital for your interest:

    Option 1

    - Contact the locum booking desk to arrange appropriate notice period to be provided to your agency
    - Notify your agency of your intention to work directly for the Trust
    - Promptly provide all required documentation requested by the Trustís Locum desk.

    Option 2

    - Your agency updates the 247 Time system and selects your payment method as P.A.Y.E.
    - Your agency will need to complete new starter form with you and new starter checklist (replacement of P46)
    - Your agency will need to upload copies of your right to work documentation, identity check documentation, DBS details and National Insurance Card ensuring that your profile contains your correct NI Number. The documents required to be completed can be found at Home .
    - Complete pensions opt out form if you wish to opt out of the pension scheme. You will be auto enrolled into the appropriate pension scheme.
    - Your agency will need to update your candidate profile on the system with your personal bank account details and your home address.
    - Finally, your agency will provide you with a Trust contract to sign and this will also be uploaded to the 247 Time system.
    - If your agency fails to do this for you after the 6th April 2017 your wages will be held until the correct documents have been uploaded for your PAYE payment. Changes cannot be back dated so please gain confirmation that your agency has actioned this fully.[/I]


    In my reading option 1 means you say goodbye to the agency and you directly contract with the hospital becoming a bank doctor. Choosing option 2 means you can use an agency however they say you are going to be paid through your personal bank account which precludes being paid as a PSC.
    This also means this hospital does not even consider any candidate being paid through an umbrella.
    According to HMRC you could be still paid as a PSC the public sector engager or agency deducting NI and PAYE the balance being paid into your business bank account. What this hospital is doing is slightly outside of what I would have considered as standard approach.

    What do you think ?

    Istvan

  2. #22

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    From what I see hospitals locums are considered inside anyway and both those options seem to reflect that going forward.

    Do the previous replies in this thread not answer your concerns already? I don't see anything PSCs in there so that appears to be off the cards now. So client runs your payroll or agency doesn't. Looks the same end to you.
    Last edited by northernladuk; 12th March 2017 at 12:57.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    From what I see hospitals locums are considered inside anyway and both those options seem to reflect that going forward.

    Do the previous replies in this thread not answer your concerns already? I don't see anything PSCs in there so that appears to be off the cards now. So client runs your payroll or agency doesn't. Looks the same end to you.
    +1. He also wants to read https://jumpshare.com/v/Et8z2DADOzCYGTJDFmHo which will explain the instructions the hospital /trust are following..
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aceofgas View Post
    Good afternoon all,

    Anxious doctors joining the conversation...

    I am a full time hospital locum and the hospitals and the in betweeners ( Liaison FS and 247Time ) has started to send out their versions of the new world after 6th of April. I have included a section from a letter sent to me by a hospital for your interest:

    Option 1

    - Contact the locum booking desk to arrange appropriate notice period to be provided to your agency
    - Notify your agency of your intention to work directly for the Trust
    - Promptly provide all required documentation requested by the Trustís Locum desk.

    Option 2

    - Your agency updates the 247 Time system and selects your payment method as P.A.Y.E.
    - Your agency will need to complete new starter form with you and new starter checklist (replacement of P46)
    - Your agency will need to upload copies of your right to work documentation, identity check documentation, DBS details and National Insurance Card ensuring that your profile contains your correct NI Number. The documents required to be completed can be found at Home .
    - Complete pensions opt out form if you wish to opt out of the pension scheme. You will be auto enrolled into the appropriate pension scheme.
    - Your agency will need to update your candidate profile on the system with your personal bank account details and your home address.
    - Finally, your agency will provide you with a Trust contract to sign and this will also be uploaded to the 247 Time system.
    - If your agency fails to do this for you after the 6th April 2017 your wages will be held until the correct documents have been uploaded for your PAYE payment. Changes cannot be back dated so please gain confirmation that your agency has actioned this fully.[/I]


    In my reading option 1 means you say goodbye to the agency and you directly contract with the hospital becoming a bank doctor. Choosing option 2 means you can use an agency however they say you are going to be paid through your personal bank account which precludes being paid as a PSC.
    This also means this hospital does not even consider any candidate being paid through an umbrella.
    According to HMRC you could be still paid as a PSC the public sector engager or agency deducting NI and PAYE the balance being paid into your business bank account. What this hospital is doing is slightly outside of what I would have considered as standard approach.

    What do you think ?

    Istvan
    PM sent...
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    PM sent...
    He hasn't got pm rights yet so may or may not see it..
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    Quote Originally Posted by SueEllen View Post
    And I forgot to add it is posted elsewhere on this forum that all NHS workers who are contractors working with trusts are within IR35.

    I guess you only escape if you are a locum GP or similar.

    I am not sure that locum GPs do escape. Although they work at private practices, the practices receive public funds, and all GP's are included in the FOI.

    They may not be subjected to the PSC blanket ban, but I think the practice will have to make the determination.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by eek View Post
    He hasn't got pm rights yet so may or may not see it..
    True, but hoping the mods are in a good mood...
    Blog? What blog...?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    True, but hoping the mods are in a good mood...
    Doubt it only Admin can authorise that change and he's rarely around at weekends...

    Either way I was just warning you in case you were expecting a response (as if the system fails to send a mail to a recipient it doesn't notify sender).
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    From what I see hospitals locums are considered inside anyway and both those options seem to reflect that going forward.

    Do the previous replies in this thread not answer your concerns already? I don't see anything PSCs in there so that appears to be off the cards now. So client runs your payroll or agency doesn't. Looks the same end to you.
    I have read up on a fair few threads here and other message boards and I am fairly clear about what is likely to happen in the NHS. All hospital HR managers will classify any medical locums as within IR35.

    I respectfully disagree with your conclusion that either way it will bring us to the same end. I can see one main issue which is the employer's NI and the resulting issues aorund rates. Another in betweener/timesheet company already said that as employer's NI is paid by the NHS trust from April instead of the locum doctor's PSC the locum has to suck it up. This company also states they are going to pay PSC and would accept umbrellas with some reservations.

    The specific example I used was about a hospital trust which created their own interpretation of what needs to happen to implement IR35 changes. I think simply refusing to contract/engage with PSC or umbrella is a deviation from HMRC advice. I would say however it is within those measures and logic Jim Mackey CEO of NHS Improvement describes in his latest Soviet style dictat.

    On the other hand my agency produced another dictat saying they only work with candidates employed by umbrellas. I think the dust is going to take some time to settle.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by eek View Post
    +1. He also wants to read https://jumpshare.com/v/Et8z2DADOzCYGTJDFmHo which will explain the instructions the hospital /trust are following..
    Thank you for the link I have come across this a few times this weekend. Apart from the usual moral high ground type of claims of how painful it is for permanent staff to work alongside much better paid temporary staff he introduces one important dictat which is to prevent permanent medical staff from other trusts to be booked through agencies allowing only bank type of assignments. I think he may not realise that tackling the temporary workforce this way is not going to change the general lack of supply of medical workforce. In itself capping locum rates has been relatively successful with non-medical staff and I have seen quite a few permanent locum ODPs taking up permanent NHS posts. This is going to be different to doctors since converting this locum workforce into permanent is tad more complex.

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