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Thread: Beta ESS

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    Well not all of us it seems...
    As a result of one of the cases, I think it might have been Autoclenz, HRMC stated that "there was a detailed specification given by the client and this amounted to direction". I can't find the link but will look and post. They now seem to have flipped their option as they were struggling to think of an "outside" example. I guess that when the full question set is released we shall see if they have flipped back when it suits them.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by breaktwister View Post
    As a result of one of the cases, I think it might have been Autoclenz, HRMC stated that "there was a detailed specification given by the client and this amounted to direction". I can't find the link but will look and post. They now seem to have flipped their option as they were struggling to think of an "outside" example. I guess that when the full question set is released we shall see if they have flipped back when it suits them.
    There is a difference between a detailed checklist documenting what part of a car needs to be cleaned andthe website example.
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by breaktwister View Post
    •The worker follows the end client's existing employee procedures and guidelines

    This is going to confuse end-clients no end. For example, there might be site rules, safety rules and procedures that everyone onsite has to abide by. So if you are onsite in a safety conscious environment you are likely to be considered "inside" as you follow the same procedures and guidelines as other employees?
    We've done H&S and Security policies to death. H&S and IT security apply to EVERYONE on site, not just employees.
    Last edited by northernladuk; 21st February 2017 at 13:06.
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by eek View Post
    There is a difference between a detailed checklist documenting what part of a car needs to be cleaned andthe website example.
    And a difference between requirements gathering and being give an list of things to do.
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  5. #25

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    OK, so consider a hotel chambermaid on NMW. She has been told that each room needs to have a clean floor, the bed made up to a certain standard, dirty towels replaced with clean ones and stock levels in mini-bar and bathroom maintained. How she does it and in what order is up to her. The standard will be assessed by customer feedback and overseer sampling. Does that align to the SD&C tests being reported here to the same extent we claim independence in our work? It cab be argued both ways, which is why the tool can only ever be an indicator, not an arbitrator.

    And remember that many hotel chambermaids are company directors
    Blog? What blog...?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    OK, so consider a hotel chambermaid on NMW. She has been told that each room needs to have a clean floor, the bed made up to a certain standard, dirty towels replaced with clean ones and stock levels in mini-bar and bathroom maintained. How she does it and in what order is up to her. The standard will be assessed by customer feedback and overseer sampling. Does that align to the SD&C tests being reported here to the same extent we claim independence in our work? It cab be argued both ways, which is why the tool can only ever be an indicator, not an arbitrator.

    And remember that many hotel chambermaids are company directors
    Reread you final paragraph and you should be able to grasp why HMRC are taking a sledge hammer to the problem....
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

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    Quote Originally Posted by eek View Post
    Reread you final paragraph and you should be able to grasp why HMRC are taking a sledge hammer to the problem....
    No, it is evidence that the real problem is the employers offloading responsibilities to both staff and HMRC should be the target of the sledgehammer. The major flaw in the whole clusterf*** is that the people making the decision not only aren't penalised for getting it wrong, their unethical economic savings are preserved.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio View Post
    No, it is evidence that the real problem is the employers offloading responsibilities to both staff and HMRC should be the target of the sledgehammer. The major flaw in the whole clusterf*** is that the people making the decision not only aren't penalised for getting it wrong, their unethical economic savings are preserved.
    So you are saying that there are a large number of people who are self employed due to their "employers" insisting on it, who really should be employees?
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by eek View Post
    So you are saying that there are a large number of people who are self employed due to their "employers" insisting on it, who really should be employees?
    The various Uber cases around the world springs to mind. I am sure a lot of other cases where it is the employer who is insisting that the workers are self-employed and not employees.

    This is other other side of the IR35 determination problem, any PSC caught "inside" by the tests should be able to bring a claim for employment rights, holidays, pensions, sick pay - the works. I can't imagine a situation other than a purposely botched "test case" (which happens more than you think) in which a Court could say "well, these tests show that you are subject to SDC, no real substitution rights etc so we will regard you as an employee for tax purposes but NOT AN EMPLOYEE for anything else".
    Last edited by breaktwister; 21st February 2017 at 15:18.

  10. #30

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    Anyone got any more ESS questions to post up?

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