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Working inside IR35

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    Working inside IR35

    Hi all, newcomer to this so looking for some business advice.

    I just started my second gig this week. First gig went fine, client happy, but I was going via umbrella.

    With this one I was hoping to make the switch to Ltd. - I had an accountant lined up, the contract was reviewed for IR35, and there are other contractors on site, the agent was even saying I shouldn't waste my money on getting it reviewed

    But it is all about the working conditions right? And after being here a few days these things seem like red flags to me:
    - "You will be working on project x, but we might shift you onto project y if we feel like it"
    - I have been asked to sign dozens of company policy docs including one named "Employee handbook"
    - I have been asked to write docs for management on justifying certain tools the client co will purchase and I will use

    Am I right about the above putting me inside? They all seem very much disguised perm to me.

    If so what does the experienced contractor do in this situation? Seems pointless to switch to Ltd. now.

    I was thinking having a chat with the client about it, see if they would be willing to adjust how we can work together - assuming they just do not know how to do the contracting thing properly? Or is it too late now I have started work? I have not actually complied with any of the points above at this stage.

    I have opted out if that makes a difference here.

    #2
    Originally posted by lacan View Post

    But it is all about the working conditions right? And after being here a few days these things seem like red flags to me:
    - "You will be working on project x, but we might shift you onto project y if we feel like it"
    - I have been asked to sign dozens of company policy docs including one named "Employee handbook"
    - I have been asked to write docs for management on justifying certain tools the client co will purchase and I will use
    .
    1. Yes
    2. Yes - you should have changed the name on the "Employee handbook" to "Worker handbook" then all the way through then it would be OK
    3. No
    "You’re just a bad memory who doesn’t know when to go away" JR

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by SueEllen View Post
      1. Yes
      2. Yes - you should have changed the name on the "Employee handbook" to "Worker handbook" then all the way through then it would be OK
      3. No
      I bet there is a lot more he either doesn't understand or know about yet as well.
      'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

      Comment


        #4
        Accept IR35 insideness or bail out.
        The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist

        Comment


          #5
          How do any of the wise panel know whether the OP is inside or outside without knowing about MOO.

          If the client does not have to offer work (e.g. can shut down for Christmas period) and can terminate at will without notice, what does that mean for IR35?

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Old Greg View Post
            How do any of the wise panel know whether the OP is inside or outside without knowing about MOO.

            If the client does not have to offer work (e.g. can shut down for Christmas period) and can terminate at will without notice, what does that mean for IR35?
            But that isn't the lack of MoO we need in our IR35 defence? MoO is about offering work once the current agreed piece of work has been completed. Time off and that in contract is covered under the T&M nature of the contract. Nice little read on it here.

            Outside of the legal profession, the phrase "absence of Mutuality of Obligation" is now often used to mean something like "the absence of any obligation to provide and do further work when the current (relatively short term) piece of work which the worker is obliged to complete has come to an end" and to avoid confusion with terminology I will refer to contracts which lack such further obligations as "one off contracts".
            IR35: Mutuality of Obligation: what it is and what it is not :: Contractor UK

            The agreement within the contract is not quite the same and not the element needed to prove your IR35 status no? The factors can be used to demonstrate you are outside yes but it's not distinctly MoO? that's all about bilateral, unilateral and T&M contracts and financial risk and the like isn't it?
            'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by lacan View Post
              - I have been asked to sign dozens of company policy docs including one named "Employee handbook"
              Quick one for the rest of you - while this does indeed seem like an IR35 indicator (see what I did there), what about completing standard "online training" modules e.g. data protection, money laundering?

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by elpato View Post
                Quick one for the rest of you - while this does indeed seem like an IR35 indicator (see what I did there), what about completing standard "online training" modules e.g. data protection, money laundering?
                We've been through this plenty of times. Everyone has to do these that work with client regardless of method of engagement so part of the business protecting itself. Just get on with it. If you refuse you won't to be allowed to work on site anyway.
                'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
                  We've been through this plenty of times. Everyone has to do these that work with client regardless of method of engagement so part of the business protecting itself. Just get on with it. If you refuse you won't to be allowed to work on site anyway.
                  Cheers, good to know. Fairly new to the forum/contracting so haven't seen this in the past! Did these in the first week of the contract anyway

                  Comment


                    #10
                    So to update on this - I have had a talk to the client about it and they are taking it to the HR people. They may be willing to be flexible, if not I will stick inside but probably avoid any renewal.

                    It seems as I thought and the client is not all that familiar with IR35 in practical terms, they are a fairly new organisation.

                    Surely if contractors wish to operate outside IR35, it's in our advantage to talk to clients about this and request adjustments? Or do all other contractors simply flounce from a contract if it turns out to be inside?

                    Comment

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