Query about DA timescales and COP8

[TonyTucker]

Hi all,

I did post this in the Sanzar forum yesterday but think it got lost amongst the other discussions going on in there. Apologies if this is the incorrect place to ask...

Anyway, I have had a DA served for 2008-9 whilst I was in Sanzar and the amount requested is certainly enough to worry about. I've appealed and like most others am awaiting the Finance Bill 2014 updates.

However, I was in two other EBT based schemes

2006-2007 - Scheme 1 - Received a COP8 letter in 2009 re the tax return but have heard nothing since

2007-2008 - Scheme 2 - Filed tax return by deadline (January 2009) and have heard nothing since.

My question is, for the 2007-2008 tax year, am I now "safe" from any DA or claims to unpaid tax from HMRC? I'm led to believe that there is a four year window after which they can't do anything. I'm just worried about the forthcoming proposals for DOTAS users, etc. ie will I be caught in this?

Also, what should I do about the COP8? It's been 5 years since the letter and have had no updates from either the original scheme provider or HMRC.

Thanks in advance for your time
TT

[jbryce]

Hi all,

I did post this in the Sanzar forum yesterday but think it got lost amongst the other discussions going on in there. Apologies if this is the incorrect place to ask...

Anyway, I have had a DA served for 2008-9 whilst I was in Sanzar and the amount requested is certainly enough to worry about. I've appealed and like most others am awaiting the Finance Bill 2014 updates.

However, I was in two other EBT based schemes

2006-2007 - Scheme 1 - Received a COP8 letter in 2009 re the tax return but have heard nothing since

2007-2008 - Scheme 2 - Filed tax return by deadline (January 2009) and have heard nothing since.

My question is, for the 2007-2008 tax year, am I now "safe" from any DA or claims to unpaid tax from HMRC? I'm led to believe that there is a four year window after which they can't do anything. I'm just worried about the forthcoming proposals for DOTAS users, etc. ie will I be caught in this?

Also, what should I do about the COP8? It's been 5 years since the letter and have had no updates from either the original scheme provider or HMRC.

Thanks in advance for your time
TT

My understanding is: If it's an open investigation it will be impacted by the proposed legislation. The four year time limit relates to when they can open the DA.

[costo]

Hi all,

I did post this in the Sanzar forum yesterday but think it got lost amongst the other discussions going on in there. Apologies if this is the incorrect place to ask...

Anyway, I have had a DA served for 2008-9 whilst I was in Sanzar and the amount requested is certainly enough to worry about. I've appealed and like most others am awaiting the Finance Bill 2014 updates.

However, I was in two other EBT based schemes

2006-2007 - Scheme 1 - Received a COP8 letter in 2009 re the tax return but have heard nothing since

2007-2008 - Scheme 2 - Filed tax return by deadline (January 2009) and have heard nothing since.

My question is, for the 2007-2008 tax year, am I now "safe" from any DA or claims to unpaid tax from HMRC? I'm led to believe that there is a four year window after which they can't do anything. I'm just worried about the forthcoming proposals for DOTAS users, etc. ie will I be caught in this?

Also, what should I do about the COP8? It's been 5 years since the letter and have had no updates from either the original scheme provider or HMRC.

Thanks in advance for your time
TT

The way things are going, I don't think anyone is "safe" - as HMRC can change the rules at any point in time... in theory they can only issue a "Discovery" within 4 years if they in effect found something about your tax affairs which was not apparent at the time (e.g you did not make full disclosure) and 6 years if it was deemed "Careless".

A lot of people have received DA when full disclosure was made, so really the DA should not have been sent in the first place. It has to be assumed that HMRC know these were not valid but sent them anyway, so if that power has been abused what's to stop them using the 6 year rule (carelessness) if they miss the window? Nothing is certain (which is against the rule of law).

The issue is previous to this legislation you still held onto the disputed tax and HMRC would only get paid when it got to court, so even if HMRC did something wrong/incorrect you would not lose out.

As it stands with the new legislation even if HMRC issued you a DA which was not valid, you still would have to pay up front.

The way I see it what's worst is one reason that HMRC/Government has done this is because the courts are totally clogged up. This has been a major issue for the government/HMRC - yet they (as they make the laws, control the budgets) could do something about it (e.g. spend money on courts etc).

Now the taxpayer is at the disadvantage - so even if you are 100% correct and a DA is not valid,or your affairs were 100% legit your going to have to get in the queue to get your case to court (with HMRC stalling as long as possible) - all that time you are going to be out of pocket.

The result? more people trying to get their day at court ASAP - the more clogged up it becomes - all the time we are guilty until proven innocent...

Its great for HMRC, they get a cash injection and no longer need to care about getting to courts ASAP - its pretty crap for the rest of us affected who will have their lives ruined in the process.

[TonyTucker]

My understanding is: If it's an open investigation it will be impacted by the proposed legislation. The four year time limit relates to when they can open the DA.

That's my point. I've had nothing opened from the 2007-2008 tax year, no COP8 or no DA - just the year before and the year after. All 3 schemes were with different companies so I'm just trying to work out my potential liability ie is it all 3 years or the 2 that I have interest from HMRC from?

I'm sure, given the current climate, HMRC will bend the rules somehow to include this other year but I don't see upon what legal standing.

Thanks
Tony

[costo]

That's my point. I've had nothing opened from the 2007-2008 tax year, no COP8 or no DA - just the year before and the year after. All 3 schemes were with different companies so I'm just trying to work out my potential liability ie is it all 3 years or the 2 that I have interest from HMRC from?

I'm sure, given the current climate, HMRC will bend the rules somehow to include this other year but I don't see upon what legal standing.

Thanks
Tony

If they are playing by the rules, as long as you had disclosure in your tax returns and they did not send you a COP8 at the time - in theory they should have missed the boat for that tax year.

But again - the rules are changing...

[ASB]

As long as you had FULL disclosure.

this is the bit that will need testing. Hmrc may wish to argue "I used dotas scheme number 123" is not enough. I can see their point. But I do think there are decent grounds for arguing the da is still out of time.

I understand that hmrc have withdrawn some where it is clear the taxpayer isnt going to simply acquiesce.

[PeterF]

I understand that hmrc have withdrawn some where it is clear the taxpayer isnt going to simply acquiesce.

This sounds interesting - any info you can share?

[ASB]

This sounds interesting - any info you can share?

I think if you do a search on the BN66 thread (and the various others) it may prove fruitful.

But these may be of interest too of the nominal principles involved.

HMRC Discovery powers «
HMRC not entitled to discovery assessment | AccountingWEB

I am not suggesting that there is necessarily any sort of silver bullet; simply that the issue of the DA itself has to satisfy specific criteria. One of those is whether the disclosure was full enough.

[TonyTucker]

I am not suggesting that there is necessarily any sort of silver bullet; simply that the issue of the DA itself has to satisfy specific criteria. One of those is whether the disclosure was full enough.

That's what irritates me.

My disclosures on all schemes were full enough, especially for Sanzar. Mentioned all my income, etc and the white boxes were filled in. I'd love to know on what grounds they sent me the DA. I'll probably never get the chance to defend myself and end up coughing up a fair chunk of cash but they seem to be a rule until themselves.

Cheers
Tony

[ASB]

That's what irritates me.

My disclosures on all schemes were full enough, especially for Sanzar. Mentioned all my income, etc and the white boxes were filled in. I'd love to know on what grounds they sent me the DA. I'll probably never get the chance to defend myself and end up coughing up a fair chunk of cash but they seem to be a rule until themselves.

Cheers
Tony

So you believe your disclosure was full. Hmrc don't. You have to challenge it. Along with the stress and costs it entails. Ultimately if you cant agree it off to tribunal. Or you pay up for a quiet life.

Personally I think hmrc should be obligated to open any enquiry within 1 year. Completion within 2 years. No ability to go back. They had the chance.

of course no chance of that happening.