Blow me for €4 billion

[WTFH]

Also, when you talk about agreeing what they want..... what exactly does the EU want regarding NI border - it appears as though they washed their hands and just said "no harder border but you come up with the alternative" - perhaps you could enlighten us all or point us in the right direction.......is it just the UK that needs to issue demands and hold positions in the negotiations or should the EU be constructively positing alternatives?

Wow.

Let’s see... the EU did not want the UK to leave. the EU would like to have the UK remain as part of it.
The EU would like the Ireland border to remain open, without security checkpoints.

It’s quite simple what the EU would like.

On the other hand, what the UK negotiators want is a mystery to them, to us and to the EU.

No, you can’t blame Labour, no matter how much you’d like to deflect the blame to them - no Labour MPs are doing the negotiating. TM could have had a cross-party negotiating team, which would have been better for the country, but she wasn’t interested. Instead she lied, called a snap election, found a magic money tree, and still doesn’t have a direction. All she does is fly to the EU at UK tax payers expense to hold a press conference in front of her cabinet about how the UK will definitely not leave in the 2 year time frame promised, but will take at least twice as long.

[The_Equalizer]

Wow.

Let’s see... the EU did not want the UK to leave. the EU would like to have the UK remain as part of it.
The EU would like the Ireland border to remain open, without security checkpoints.

It’s quite simple what the EU would like.

Not really an answer though is it? The EU needs to look after RoI's interests here so it should, in theory, being making just as much effort including compromise. Its intransigence has all the hallmarks of the 'project must go on whatever the cost'.

[WTFH]

Not really an answer though is it? The EU needs to look after RoI's interests here so it should, in theory, being making just as much effort including compromise. Its intransigence has all the hallmarks of the 'project must go on whatever the cost'.

Sorry, how is it not an answer? I was asked what the EU wanted, I answered clearly.
The EU wants the border to remain open.
That is in the best interests of RoI and NI.
What is unclear about that?

The UK hasn’t said what it wants, but according to Bean, they shouldn’t because that is showing their hand.

So, the EU states what it wants and is accused by you of intransigence.
The UK refuses to state what it wants and you blame the EU.

...that explains the Brexit mentality in a nutshell. Clueless and directionless. No idea what you want, but you’ll argue black is white with anyone who might have a clue.

[Bean]

Wow.

Let’s see... the EU did not want the UK to leave. the EU would like to have the UK remain as part of it.
The EU would like the Ireland border to remain open, without security checkpoints.

It’s quite simple what the EU would like.

On the other hand, what the UK negotiators want is a mystery to them, to us and to the EU.

No, you can’t blame Labour, no matter how much you’d like to deflect the blame to them - no Labour MPs are doing the negotiating. TM could have had a cross-party negotiating team, which would have been better for the country, but she wasn’t interested. Instead she lied, called a snap election, found a magic money tree, and still doesn’t have a direction. All she does is fly to the EU at UK tax payers expense to hold a press conference in front of her cabinet about how the UK will definitely not leave in the 2 year time frame promised, but will take at least twice as long.

I wasn't trying to blame labour whatsoever, merely stating they have divisions in their party too - so they also wouldn't/don't have a clear agreement on what they want - so the UK negotiating team would be in exactly the same position regardless of who was PM and what party was in power. wow.

Cross-party? and yet you screech about having no set agreed demands?

I agree, I didn't want a snap election either. Every party has a magic money tree, to say otherwise is to be oblivious to reality.

Yep, pigs at the trough: See DT, JcJ, GV, & all sorts of UK politicians, happens everywhere - especially G7, G8, G20 etc....


So;
the EU did not want the UK to leave. = Irrelevant, voted out
the EU would like to have the UK remain as part of it = Irrelevant, voted out
The EU would like the Ireland border to remain open, without security checkpoints. = oh? so would the UK, so both parties already agree
(is that ^[point 3] the only position the EU has given then? Nothing on trade, security, defence, tariffs, agriculture, fishing etc, etc. - do you now see why I said they have not stated their positions?)

[WTFH]

So;
the EU did not want the UK to leave. = Irrelevant, voted out
the EU would like to have the UK remain as part of it = Irrelevant, voted out
The EU would like the Ireland border to remain open, without security checkpoints. = oh? so would the UK, so both parties already agree
(is that ^[point 3] the only position the EU has given then? Nothing on trade, security, defence, tariffs, agriculture, fishing etc, etc. - do you now see why I said they have not stated their positions?)

You’re saying that anything the EU wants which doesn’t fit with what the UK wants is irrelevant.
How do two groups negotiate if one side just whines “Irrelevant, voted out” to everything?

[Bean]

Sorry, how is it not an answer? I was asked what the EU wanted, I answered clearly.

That's subjective

The EU wants the border to remain open.
That is in the best interests of RoI and NI.
What is unclear about that?

Nothing, except how it is 'achieved' as they have said status quo is a no-no haven't they?

The UK hasn’t said what it wants, but according to Bean, they shouldn’t because that is showing their hand.

That's not exactly what I said, and you know it. I agreed that we should agree frameworks (seriously, how hard is it to scroll and read prior posts?), but not necessarily the specifics, as a way to force the start of parallel transition & future trade talks (both of which are being denied by the EU at the moment)

So, the EU states what it wants and is accused by you of intransigence.

It hasn't really though has it? only on the border issue, maybe.

The UK refuses to state what it wants and you blame the EU.

No governance by the ECJ, No customs union, stay in some scientific projects, out of the euro, Eurozone, bailout funds, no freedom of movement in the current guise.

...that explains the Brexit mentality in a nutshell. Clueless and directionless. No idea what you want, but you’ll argue black is white with anyone who might have a clue.

except it's not, that's just a perception, one of many available.

would you unilaterally agree to the EU citizens currently residing in the UK full rights and oversight by the ECJ?
Do you think that would respect the out vote?
how much has the EU said we will have to pay for access to the single market? (what dya mean they haven't said yet? )

[Bean]

You’re saying that anything the EU wants which doesn’t fit with what the UK wants is irrelevant.
How do two groups negotiate if one side just whines “Irrelevant, voted out” to everything?

No, i'm saying that after a referendum with an outcome of vote=leave, the EU's wishes for the UK to remain within it are irrelevant

They don't, but then they won't and besides - that's not what I was saying.

It really shouldn't be this hard

[northernladyuk]

Not really an answer though is it? The EU needs to look after RoI's interests here so it should, in theory, being making just as much effort including compromise. Its intransigence has all the hallmarks of the 'project must go on whatever the cost'.

Fundamentally everyone is trying to square a circle. Each side has 'unmovables', which mean that if the UK is outside the single market and customs union, and there is no special status for NI which would put up barriers between NI and GB, then there must be a managed border at least for goods (I think the current CTA for people is manageable).

The border can be made as 'frictionless' as possible, but the Norway-Sweden model has challenges that may be be insuperable:

- Norway is within the single market and EEA, so Norway and Sweden recognise each other's standards. The customs issue is therefore one of tariffs.
- I'm not sure (does anyone know?) whether Norway / Sweden cross border trade has the same flow of livestock (for slaughter) and milk (for processing). In any case these product types will present major challenges if the UK is outside the single market. This guy is an extreme example of the problem but the cross border dairy supply chain is complex.

So the Norway / Sweden model should be explored but I wouldn't be confident: even if it can be transferred, there is still physical infrastructure and there are checks. These would have to be applied to 275 land border crossing points (or border crossing points would have to be closed - good luck with that), as against 137 land border crossing points between the EU and the whole of Eastern Europe Reality Check: Ireland's border and Brexit - BBC News , or about 45 between Norway and Sweden http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%...rder_crossings

[WTFH]

Blow me for €4 billion

No customs union,...
...how much has the EU said we will have to pay for access to the single market? (what dya mean they haven't said yet? :freak )

The Leave Campaign said no customs union.
...but they want access to the market as if there was a customs union.

...no freedom of movement in the current guise.

...but no mention of what the UK negotiators want. (what dya mean they haven't said yet? :freak )

Do you think that would respect the out vote?

What does the leave vote mean?
The vote didn’t specify.
It didn’t specify the Irish border.
It didn’t specify trade
It didn’t specify freedom of movement for work
It didn’t specify International treaties.
It was a vote to leave or not.

Perhaps if someone in the Brexit camp could make positive comments about what they want instead of starting everything off with “No”

Perhaps if someone in the Brexit camp could state what “leave” actually meant in detail, it would help. Is it breaking every single tie with the European Union? Is it only breaking some ties? Which ties do the negotiators want to keep? Open Skies? CEN? CERN? ESA?

It shouldn’t take much for the Brexit negotiators to list off everything where they are happy to stay with the status quo, or is that revealing their hand too much?

[BlasterBates]

Apparently the export statistics have been skewed by Gold sales. The UK doesn't mine Gold but there is a lot of Gold stored in London bank vaults and recently the Chinese have been repatriating Gold, which gives the impression that the UK is increasing its exports to the rest of the world, but the truth is it simply isn't. When you remove Gold from the figures, most UK exports are to the EU.