• Visitors can check out the Forum FAQ by clicking this link. You have to register before you can post: click the REGISTER link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. View our Forum Privacy Policy.
  • Want to receive the latest contracting news and advice straight to your inbox? Sign up to the ContractorUK newsletter here. Every sign up will also be entered into a draw to WIN £100 Amazon vouchers!

Project Management, do we need it?

Collapse
X
  •  
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #91
    Originally posted by SueEllen View Post
    Then they wouldn't be called a developer....
    Modern software developers do not just sit in front a PC all day. Senior or lead developers often have the experience of working with client, drawing up requirements and distributing work within the team.

    Most senior devs I know are comfortable talking with board members etc and can update them without resorting to technical babble.

    Comment


      #92
      Originally posted by woohoo View Post
      Well some admin work can be passed onto an admin person.

      But so far the main things that stand out that a PM do are (that I can see from the thread)...

      1. They are required to coordinate multiple teams who don't work in the same disciplines and/or on the project at the same time.
      2. Required as a barrier between senior management and the developers.
      3. They can take the blame if the project fails.
      4. Required to estimate time and therefore budget for projects.
      5. They provide leadership.
      6. They put teams of together.
      FTFY

      Originally posted by woohoo View Post

      I think teams working together should not require the filter of a PM, the teams should be setup to talk and share on a regular basis.
      This works only if the teams are all developing software for the same aspect/component of the project in the same time frame, know what order they must do it in and the people are reasonably intelligent.

      It doesn't work when:
      1. The teams are doing completely different aspects/components of the same project in completely different time frames,
      2. With some outsourced vendors who are deliberately obstructive as they aim to get rid of other outsourced vendors on the project,
      3. With some people who are fecking idiots. (If you know some of the people who I have to deal with currently due to my moaning in TPD then you will understand.)

      Originally posted by woohoo View Post
      The barrier thing to me is a culture thing, but the lead dev should be able to communicate and restrict access to the development team.
      Not their job. Otherwise they will spend all their time in meetings and email exchanges explaining things to the stakeholders and upper management rather than keeping the development on track.

      Originally posted by woohoo View Post
      If the project fails the PM will not take the blame, they will assign blame and protect their job.
      They don't take the blame stakeholders and higher management assign it to them, and then pressurise them to leave their job.

      I know a few PMs this has happened too. One who was aware of it happening to their predecessor escape with no blame but still had to leave.

      Originally posted by woohoo View Post
      Estimates are usually done by the devs/engineers and are guesses, usually they are forced to do this by a PM that needs to justify their progress. It's pretty harmful to estimate/guess at the start of the project.
      You have to estimate/guess at the start of the project so higher management have an idea of the budget and can charge customers accordingly. It happens in all spheres of industry from building a motorway, replacing railway bridges, building a house, building a train, to getting a landscaper to give you a new lawn, etc.

      Originally posted by woohoo View Post
      Providing leadership should not be part of the PM role in my opinion.
      Who are they leading?

      Originally posted by woohoo View Post

      PM putting teams together, well I think it can be done at the start without the need for a PM to do this.
      Someone needs to do this. In smaller companies it is the director but as companies get larger they dump the role on the PM. However on some projects I've worked on I've asked why we don't have people who are there to do specific roles such as testers, and have to explain in detail why they are needed.
      "You’re just a bad memory who doesn’t know when to go away" JR

      Comment


        #93
        Originally posted by woohoo View Post
        Does it though, I've not heard a convincing argument why a dedicated PM should lead a software team creating a product.
        I don't think they should necessarily lead the team. I think they should project manage the project, and take responsibility for project delivery. I typically work within clinical IT implementation projects, and the person leading the team is typically a clinician. The leader makes sure the right things are being done .The project manager makes sure those things get done in the right timescale, order etc.

        Comment


          #94
          I spent about 15 years as a RAD developer in Oil, Finance, Engineering, all sorts. I did all the things everybody is talking about - soup to nuts; womb-to-tomb - and never had a project manager near me; never even saw one. As you say, those tasks - those roles - can be performed by 'analysts/programmers'

          Then I became a programme manager on multi-million projects with up to a 100 workers and another 100 stakeholders and can tell you that no way in the world would any of that worked in the slightest without a PM presence.

          Later, I led a small agile team developing a new web channel for international health insurance. A lot of the technical decision making and product design was essentially done by the tech lead and the BA but I again I can tell you that they were only too pleased that I - as project manager - was dealing with all the crap around nasty vendor relationships, budgeting, estimating, reporting, UAT etc. In this instance I was having public wars with the vendor who was screwing us for no good reason. I eventually got sacked but the team loved the fact that I was fighting for them. They couldn't afford to do it. They were all permies. But as a PM I was expendable. PMs get hired and fired almost as often as football managers. (the project was a success and I had a damn good leaving do)

          So you're right. And you're wrong. There is no one answer to your question.

          Personally I think most PMs are a waste of space but I empathise: it's a crappy, thankless job but everyone wants somebody to take the blame for everything and cope with being 24X7 shafted.
          "Don't part with your illusions; when they are gone you may still exist, but you have ceased to live" Mark Twain

          Comment


            #95
            Originally posted by woohoo View Post
            I'm a developer with 20 years plus experience and I can tell you that you can't estimate how long a development project will take. You are you lucky if you can estimate how long a small task will take, if you have thousands of small tasks, you don't have a chance in hell.

            IT PMs cause project failures from this kind of thinking. Even if all goes well, without the issues you talk about, you can't estimate how long something will take unless you have done the exact same task before and can remember how long it took. This does not happen often.
            When I was a developer, I was able to estimate what time I needed to do my tasks.

            Tell me, if you can't estimate the time you need for your tasks how do you know the number of resources that you need?

            Imagine that you need to set up a new Telecom operator (or whatever you need to implement) and you only have 6 months to do it, what would you do?

            Comment


              #96
              Originally posted by Bee View Post
              When I was a developer, I was able to estimate what time I needed to do my tasks.

              Tell me, if you can't estimate the time you need for your tasks how do you know the number of resources that you need?

              Imagine that you need to set up a new Telecom operator (or whatever you need to implement) and you only have 6 months to do it, what would you do?
              I would probably ask why you have given me an arbitrary 6 month deadline.

              Comment


                #97
                Originally posted by woohoo View Post
                I would probably ask why you have given me an arbitrary 6 month deadline.
                You seem to have very easy clients. I almost never have a deadline that isn't arbitrary.

                Quite often when starting a project, and I get told to finish by March, and I ask 'which year' they think I'm joking.
                See You Next Tuesday

                Comment


                  #98
                  Originally posted by woohoo View Post
                  I would probably ask why you have given me an arbitrary 6 month deadline.
                  OK, say it's a regulatory deadline. Project X has to be in place, tested, working, signed off by the regulator as compliant within a set period or your client can no longer operate. Are you going to say "nah, mate, I'll do it in my own time at my own pace and if we get shut down, well that's not my problem"?

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Originally posted by woohoo View Post
                    I would probably ask why you have given me an arbitrary 6 month deadline.
                    Time box.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Lance View Post
                      You seem to have very easy clients. I almost never have a deadline that isn't arbitrary.

                      Quite often when starting a project, and I get told to finish by March, and I ask 'which year' they think I'm joking.
                      I always ask about deadlines that seem to be plucked out of thin air. So far I've seen projects struggle because an MD has decided making a deadline up will focus the development team. Only to wonder why the team produced a pile of crap trying to meet this deadline.

                      I've seen a deadline for a CRM/Lead Gen system that was pulled out of the air because they didn't want to spend 4k on diaries so wanted the project delivered before they where forced to buy them. 4k was a tiny fraction of the project cost.

                      If you give me a fixed deadline without a reason I will walk. Life is too short.

                      oh and to be fair I've always been up front with clients and have never had to walk. You have to be very careful giving out estimates, even if you say it's pretty much a guess - it will be passed onto the board that it's a 1 year project and will cost x amount.
                      Last edited by woohoo; 28 September 2017, 16:06.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X