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  1. #11

    Ddraig Goch


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    Quote Originally Posted by BrilloPad View Post
    If it is likely to go wrong it might not be too bad.

    I was once on a daily rate. I worked 24 hours and billed 3 days for it.

    I hope you are looking round for another gig?
    I've worked for clients who'd have moaned if I billed more than a day. Others who would have said no budget for more than a day and said you can have the rest in TOIL (the moan when I bill for two days off and ask where it came from!)
    Rhyddid i lofnod psychocandy!!!!

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by psychocandy View Post
    I've worked for clients who'd have moaned if I billed more than a day. Others who would have said no budget for more than a day and said you can have the rest in TOIL (the moan when I bill for two days off and ask where it came from!)
    TOIL is a really weird (and distressingly permie) way of defining it. Surely the correct way to do it is to bill for the two days but have it agreed in the contract that the services supplied will not exceed 5 days per week.
    Where there's muck there's brass.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladyuk View Post
    TOIL is a really weird (and distressingly permie) way of defining it. Surely the correct way to do it is to bill for the two days but have it agreed in the contract that the services supplied will not exceed 5 days per week.
    Very much this. Horrible term to be using. I mean.. Time off??
    'CUK forum personality of 2011' - Winner - Yes really!!!!

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by psychocandy View Post
    Also reminds me of another client. Called all contractors into meeting blah blah made up blah

    Then they sorted contract with the agency. 1.5x blah blah didn't happen blah blah

    Lets just say the riot was blah blah my story so I'll tell it how I want blah blah.
    FTFY

    You didn't moan about it on here so it didn't happen.
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  5. #15

    Fingers like lightning

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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladyuk View Post
    TOIL is a really weird (and distressingly permie) way of defining it. Surely the correct way to do it is to bill for the two days but have it agreed in the contract that the services supplied will not exceed 5 days per week.
    I find it bizarre that any contractor would accept this.
    Even as a permie I didn't like it as you are basically trusting your employer to give you extra time off. Seeing as they can refuse your leave anyway, and that days earned by TOIL will be the ones they can shirk paying at year end if you've not used all your leave, you're asking to be shafted.

    The reality is the client is asking you to give them a discount of x days today on the non-contracted promise of paying the discount back later. Good luck getting it if you fall out (or leave, or the 'TOIL' bill gets large enough for them to just not sign the timesheet later).

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance View Post
    I find it bizarre that any contractor would accept this.
    Even as a permie I didn't like it as you are basically trusting your employer to give you extra time off. Seeing as they can refuse your leave anyway, and that days earned by TOIL will be the ones they can shirk paying at year end if you've not used all your leave, you're asking to be shafted.

    The reality is the client is asking you to give them a discount of x days today on the non-contracted promise of paying the discount back later. Good luck getting it if you fall out (or leave, or the 'TOIL' bill gets large enough for them to just not sign the timesheet later).
    PC is well regarded as a hard-nosed businessman, and clients know better than to pull anything on him.
    Where there's muck there's brass.

  7. #17

    More time posting than coding


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance View Post
    I find it bizarre that any contractor would accept this.
    Even as a permie I didn't like it as you are basically trusting your employer to give you extra time off. Seeing as they can refuse your leave anyway, and that days earned by TOIL will be the ones they can shirk paying at year end if you've not used all your leave, you're asking to be shafted.

    The reality is the client is asking you to give them a discount of x days today on the non-contracted promise of paying the discount back later. Good luck getting it if you fall out (or leave, or the 'TOIL' bill gets large enough for them to just not sign the timesheet later).
    It never ceases to amaze me that some clients fail to notice that the word "contractor" contains the key word "contract". Well, that and "or" but the latter isn't important enough to make an attempt of a joke from.

  8. #18
    aft
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    Thanks for all the advice. It's all up in the air at the moment so we will see how it lands.

    While I have your attention there's something else I'm wondering;

    Being a newb I signed the opt out, - then looked it up 5 minutes afterwards and instantly regretted it - yes I'm a fool, I did take a bit more time over the contract itself after realising I'd made a mistake.

    Anyway I am in a chain that looks like this:

    end client -> big IT corp -> big agency -> small agency -> MyLtdCoTM (just kidding no TM)

    My contract includes a restriction clause around cutting the agent out of the deal.

    Does that mean I can't work for anyone else in the chain for 6 months?

    Hypothetical: - the 3 corps in the middle don't want to drop their margins because they're on to a very good thing. End client has arrangements in place with ConsultancyFirm that sub-contracts work out. If I made an engagement with ConsultancyFirm who sent me to end client, would I be in breach of the restriction? - Now because they wont budge on on-call, or in 6 months because they try to fleece me again in renewal.

    It feels to me like big corp IT is the client - they could deploy me to any of their many clients, if they wanted to, although that may have ir-35 implications that is out of scope for this discussion. I suppose without seeing what the contract between BigITCorp and end client looks like it's difficult to say.

    I guess my thoughts are if things turn south with the agency(s) then would it be possible to continue without them for same end client?

    Edit: Just looked at the contract and it specifies the client as BigITCorp and that is also stated on the opt out.
    Last edited by aft; 12th August 2017 at 12:05.

  9. #19

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    If the agent stands to lose money when you do whatever then yes the handcuff will stand. How he's going to prove it with such a long chain I'm not sure but they will kick up a stink either way.
    'CUK forum personality of 2011' - Winner - Yes really!!!!

  10. #20
    aft
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    Quote Originally Posted by northernladuk View Post
    If the agent stands to lose money when you do whatever then yes the handcuff will stand. How he's going to prove it with such a long chain I'm not sure but they will kick up a stink either way.
    Even if they have first refusal on my new terms and decline it?

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