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    #31
    Originally posted by No2politics View Post
    I disagree. You can't get the same theoretical grounding in a stem subject on the job that you get from a three year degree. Granted if you decide to move to a completely unrelated area this doesn't really matter.
    In some cases yes but it's changed over time I think. Back in the day it was a differentiator just having a degree. Showed you could learn and had academic qualities. Brighter kids went to Uni, not so did apprenticeships etc. Many people picking easier degrees rather than one in a specific subject. Obviously a certain degree helped in a related profession to some extent. Nowadays with degrees being so expensive it's not such a differentiator. Brighter kids might be opting for better apprenticeships because of the cost and risk of going to uni so I think the baseline of having a degree isn't going to be as useful in the future. Better interviewing techniques will be required. Well I hope they will.
    'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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      #32
      Originally posted by billybiro View Post
      Nope. I've worked with many people. Some have had degrees, some haven't. Some of them have been muppets and some of those muppets have been the ones with degrees and some of them haven't.

      However, of the people who I can genuinely look back on as someone who was truly excellent at what they did, the majority of those people have been the ones without a degree - hell, some of them didn't even have any formal education at all.

      Perhaps related, but they've also mostly been the older folks. The ones who've been around for a longer time and have largely seen and done it all and arguably got to be as skilled as they are by application (ie. practice) of their trade rather than paper qualifications (i.e. theory).

      They can also usually smell BS (of both the management and shiny-new-but-really-old-technology kind) from a mile away, and simply get the job done in the most efficient and robust way (i.e. stuff that gets implemented/fixed stays fixed), usually while those "educated" folks are still dotting the i's and crossing the t's on their TPS reports.
      Like I said, bollocks. In any discipline that requires deep and/or lengthy technical study - doctor, surgeon, aeronautical engineer, geophysicist, whatever - it's completely moot, as there's literally no route in without a higher degree (and very little prospect of "teaching yourself" anyway ). Even in more applied or semi-technical trades, where on-the-job training is possible, in principle, it's still an advantage to have a good degree, as it's an obvious means of discriminating, fairly or otherwise. Not to mention all the soft-skills, contacts etc. made through university. In that sense, you can have potential but, without the right credentials, you're going to be held back. The other stuff relating to attitude ("getting the job done", "being robust", "able to smell BS") is palpable bollocks, as you seem to allude to in your first sentence; whether someone has a good attitude and work ethic is unrelated to their formal education... unless you have a chip on your shoulder about people with degrees (I'm assuming you don't).

      Perhaps your experience relates to an earlier generation. A time when someone could learn on the job, work their way up through the ranks of something - forged in battle and all that crap - that time has long gone. There are no jobs for life anymore, no greasy ladders to slide up that are not guarded by some HR spiv itching to ditch your "life experience" CV at the first rung. All those good people you've anecdotally come across without degrees - unless you're in an apprenticed trade or something - that pathway is long dead in my anecdotal experience, and they won't be around as that reality filters through over time. Having a formal education doesn't guarantee aptitude, but it certainly provides options.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
        In some cases yes but it's changed over time I think. Back in the day it was a differentiator just having a degree. Showed you could learn and had academic qualities. Brighter kids went to Uni, not so did apprenticeships etc. Many people picking easier degrees rather than one in a specific subject. Obviously a certain degree helped in a related profession to some extent. Nowadays with degrees being so expensive it's not such a differentiator. Brighter kids might be opting for better apprenticeships because of the cost and risk of going to uni so I think the baseline of having a degree isn't going to be as useful in the future. Better interviewing techniques will be required. Well I hope they will.
        I hope you are right. But I fear that society is going to become more polarised with the less off not given the same opportunities.
        "You can't climb the ladder of success, with your hands in the pockets"
        Arnold Schwarzenegger

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by jamesbrown View Post
          Like I said, bollocks. In any discipline that requires deep and/or lengthy technical study - doctor, surgeon, aeronautical engineer, geophysicist, whatever - it's completely moot, as there's literally no route in without a higher degree (and very little prospect of "teaching yourself" anyway ). Even in more applied or semi-technical trades, where on-the-job training is possible, in principle, it's still an advantage to have a good degree, as it's an obvious means of discriminating, fairly or otherwise. Not to mention all the soft-skills, contacts etc. made through university. In that sense, you can have potential but, without the right credentials, you're going to be held back. The other stuff relating to attitude ("getting the job done", "being robust", "able to smell BS") is palpable bollocks, as you seem to allude to in your first sentence; whether someone has a good attitude and work ethic is unrelated to their formal education... unless you have a chip on your shoulder about people with degrees (I'm assuming you don't).

          Perhaps your experience relates to an earlier generation. A time when someone could learn on the job, work their way up through the ranks of something - forged in battle and all that crap - that time has long gone. There are no jobs for life anymore, no greasy ladders to slide up that are not guarded by some HR spiv itching to ditch your "life experience" CV at the first rung. All those good people you've anecdotally come across without degrees - unless you're in an apprenticed trade or something - that pathway is long dead in my anecdotal experience, and they won't be around as that reality filters through over time. Having a formal education doesn't guarantee aptitude, but it certainly provides options.
          And I say bollocks to you.

          I'm not talking about "jobs for life" or "greasy ladders", I'm talking about clients and organisations that are savvy and mature enough to want to employ the services of people who can walk the walk not just talk the talk.

          But therein lies the rub, I seem to come across many more people - and almost entire organisations - these days that are filled with those that simply talk the talk. Perhaps it's a scourge of the modern age in that what's valued is what you look like and what you say rather than what you can actually do (Incidentally, I think this explains a lot about modern society hence why we're obsessed with celebrity and other vacuous, superficial garbage). That said, there are some organisations out there, admittedly the number getting smaller, who don't give a monkey's what you say and will judge you based upon what you can actually, genuinely do.

          Oh, and the statement about not being able to "teach yourself", specifically with regard to my (and probably your profession of IT) is absolute crap. Classic case in point. I had the misfortune of sitting on a number of interviews for a "graduate developer" position that my client was trying to fill. All the candidates had recent degrees in some computer-related subject. Not one of them - I repeat - not one knew anything about any source control management system (i.e. Git, Mercurial, TFS, etc.). Every single developer job today, even entry level roles, will absolutely require the usage of such a system. After about the third candidate, I was gobsmacked that no-one knew anything about any SCM, until the candidate told me, "They didn't teach us that in university". Wow. Just wow.

          Further proves that university (and don't forget, everything is a "university" now - even that tulipty old polytechnic that takes in people that can barely write their own name!) teaches very, very little (and in some areas, absolutely nothing) about what's required out here in the real world.

          Finally, just to pick you up on this nonsense:
          Originally posted by jamesbrown View Post
          In that sense, you can have potential but, without the right credentials, you're going to be held back.
          Care to explain why many of the world's most successful and wealthiest business people didn't get a degree or even graduate from college/university?

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by billybiro View Post
            And I say bollocks to you.

            I'm not talking about "jobs for life" or "greasy ladders", I'm talking about clients and organisations that are savvy and mature enough to want to employ the services of people who can walk the walk not just talk the talk.
            That's difficult to find out at interview. Hence most companies recruit on the knowledge that the person has done the same thing previously. The better ones then allow them to expand in a role.

            Originally posted by billybiro View Post
            But therein lies the rub, I seem to come across many more people - and almost entire organisations - these days that are filled with those that simply talk the talk. Perhaps it's a scourge of the modern age in that what's valued is what you look like and what you say rather than what you can actually do (Incidentally, I think this explains a lot about modern society hence why we're obsessed with celebrity and other vacuous, superficial garbage). That said, there are some organisations out there, admittedly the number getting smaller, who don't give a monkey's what you say and will judge you based upon what you can actually, genuinely do.

            Oh, and the statement about not being able to "teach yourself", specifically with regard to my (and probably your profession of IT) is absolute crap. Classic case in point. I had the misfortune of sitting on a number of interviews for a "graduate developer" position that my client was trying to fill. All the candidates had recent degrees in some computer-related subject. Not one of them - I repeat - not one knew anything about any source control management system (i.e. Git, Mercurial, TFS, etc.). Every single developer job today, even entry level roles, will absolutely require the usage of such a system. After about the third candidate, I was gobsmacked that no-one knew anything about any SCM, until the candidate told me, "They didn't teach us that in university". Wow. Just wow.
            Shows how you don't understand the point of university.

            I remember being told at university they aren't there to teach us the latests and greatest tools for work, if we want to know that we have to find it out ourselves. They are there to teach us how to learn, research and broaden our minds.

            First role I had they were impressed in my ability to find information out and use it.

            Originally posted by billybiro View Post
            Further proves that university (and don't forget, everything is a "university" now - even that tulipty old polytechnic that takes in people that can barely write their own name!) teaches very, very little (and in some areas, absolutely nothing) about what's required out here in the real world.
            Polytechnics were, and some of the former ones still have courses that are, better at aligning themselves to industry. In other words they would teach theory then send their students out to sandwich years or months, if the student wasn't part time already, to understand the theory in practice.

            Their degrees use to be awarded by a local university and most of the students came to study after working already.

            Unfortunately when they decided they wanted some of the research funding of the universities things went wrong and they started doing tulipty courses to make more money. Not helped by having a PM at the time who wasn't university educated so didn't know that polytechnics were actually for.


            Originally posted by billybiro View Post
            Finally, just to pick you up on this nonsense:


            Care to explain why many of the world's most successful and wealthiest business people didn't get a degree or even graduate from college/university?
            Most of the successful and wealthiest business people you allude to had wealthy parents. If you are wealthy you tend to have more culture capital. If you have that type of culture capital then you don't need a degree as you know a wide range of people and how to do things. For example the younger generation in my family can easily find out how to set up businesses, etc as they know sufficient people who are self-employed or run companies. They also have parents they can live with for free if their business fecks up. If you don't have the latter in this day an age you will be sofa surfing with friends if you are lucky and on the street if you aren't.
            "You’re just a bad memory who doesn’t know when to go away" JR

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by psychocandy View Post
              A degree in computer science or any other relevant subject

              That's handy then. Something I did 25+ years ago is really relevant....

              Sort of puts me off because it says what sort of place it is....
              Yes means a lot.
              In the past, I had to work with programmers without Computer Science degree, the structure of their program code was a complete nightmare.

              Comment


                #37
                ^^^^^^ This (Sue Ellen's post not Bee's)

                Uni is about learning to learn.

                I went to a red brick Uni and it got me a job once.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by radish2008 View Post
                  ^^^^^^ This (Sue Ellen's post not Bee's)

                  Uni is about learning to learn.

                  I went to a red brick Uni and it got me a job once.
                  What!!!

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Bee View Post
                    What!!!
                    You posted at the same time as me.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by radish2008 View Post
                      You posted at the same time as me.


                      Ok

                      Comment

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